Two Lone Minarets

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07:16
George Gavrilis
Bala Hissar. What is that all about?

07:18
Laura Tedesco
A Bala Hissar is a fortress. Well, there's a Bala Hissar in nearly every major Afghan city. We'll talk about the one in Ghazni, which is justly famous for having played an important part in the First Afghan British war, if I'm not mistaken. If you were to go to Ghazni now, George, and you drove into the center of this small yet sprawling town, there is enormous fortification walls that are two, three storeys high in places, and from a distance, they look magnificent and foreboding.

08:02
Laura Tedesco
And as you get closer, you can see the condition is dire— crumbling, and they're eroding from the bottom up. And there are even homes built against the walls of the fortress as part of a wall for a residence. And there are lean-to shops where a small shopkeeper might set up a piece of corrugated metal and prop it up on metal poles and use the back wall from the Bala Hissar. 

08:31
Laura Tedesco
And traffic is like rumbling all around it and you're parking right up next to it. It's the remnant of what once was a foreboding and highly protected and important city. The condition of the Bala Hissar in a way reflects the condition of Ghazni in general.

08:51
Laura Tedesco
I've visited the Bala Hissar several times to work with the Afghans I was with, with the Polish archaeologists that I was collaborating with and to understand, is this restorable? The Bala Hissar of Ghazni, in unvarnished, regular language: can this be fixed? 

09:13

Laura Tedesco

The answer that we arrived at in many conversations and when I say we, I mean, the Polish archaeologists who were very fine experts in the area, other professionals that I spoke to who were working in Kabul, who were very familiar with the Bala Hissar, some Afghan government officials, and the conclusion was, it might be biting off more than we could chew.

09:37
Laura Tedesco
Ultimately, I believe the German government, one or two years later, were convinced to kick in some money for restoration of the Bala Hissar and I have not been back to Ghazni since that work was undertaken.

09:55
Laura Tedesco
The major monuments that you asked about, George, they're just sort of few kilometers outside the city. So you go out on the dirt road, and it's barren, but you'll see as you're driving off on a sloping hill, a mausoleum, you're not sure if it's an old one or a new one. That's where an important person would have been buried. Off to one side, there's maybe 20 or 25 rusted out Soviet tanks, back from when the Soviets were there. The tanks are still left and they're rusty, jumbled up like a junkyard.

10:31
Laura Tedesco
Then you see emerge quickly, it's not that they're hidden, but you maybe don't notice them at first— at least I was looking at the old rusty Soviet tanks—these two enormous minarets. They're tall, I don't know the precise height. But imagine, seven stories tall, and these towers have very intricate brickwork, and some kind of— I couldn't read it, but writing at the top and this Kufic elaborate calligraphy. And you can see immediately, oh, these were built for someone to show possession of this land. I get it. They were meant to be these imposing monuments that were to leave an impression that someone important was in control here.

11:26
George Gavrilis
When were they built?

11:28
Laura Tedesco
The 11th and 12th century. There's two of them.

11:32
George Gavrilis
What would have been attached to the minarets? There must have been a greater mosque structure, right?

11:36
Laura Tedesco
It was just the minarets standing in isolation. And if you didn't know what they were, you might think, are they smokestacks? What's going on here? Because there's no other building constructed immediately adjacent to the minaret. But then as you get closer, and you start looking at the landscape, that's where you can see the architecture just underground, and the outlines of elaborate large buildings. But there's a road that cuts through and there's animals grazing and the Soviet tanks are just to the other side.

12:10
Laura Tedesco
So nothing would be intact underground, but you can surely see that there would have been an entire complex of probably madrasas—schools, mosques associated with these enormous minarets. And what I came to learn shortly after was the palace of the first individual— there were two— a grandfather and a grandson who built them— the palace of the grandfather, was just off to the side. And it had been excavated decades before by the Italians and really defined how people understand medieval Ghazni from the 11th and 12th century.

12:54
George Gavrilis
Why do you think the mosque structure disappeared except for the minaret? Do we know?

13:00
Laura Tedesco
Good question. Well, the Ghaznavid Empire lived fast and died young, it didn't last for very long, but it was immensely powerful, you know, it stretched all the way into India, at its height, and maybe at the end of it— we'll have to ask someone who's a Ghaznavid Empire expert. But over time, you know, buildings go into disrepair, they get abandoned. The land isn't occupied as actively as it was; capital cities move. It's just sort of tincture of time.

13:34
George Gavrilis
What was your charge? What were you supposed to do? Or let me rephrase that. What was at stake? And what did the minarets need?

13:43
Laura Tedesco
What was my charge? My charge was: work with the governor of Ghazni, to realize his ambitions to highlight the heritage of Ghazni. And this was all in collaboration with other American diplomats and military. I have to make that really clear. It's not as if I were doing this in isolation, driving out in some beat-up Toyota Corolla to meet the governor of Ghazni. It wasn't like that at all. There were a lot of people charged with similar things as me. My particular focus happened to be heritage.

14:24
Laura Tedesco
When you approach the minarets, your first impression is, oh, they look really vulnerable, because they're sitting out in isolation. We had already known that in the early 1900s, the top half of them collapsed in an earthquake. So they were already half gone. What's left are still very impressive beckoning towers on the landscape. You have a sense of their uniqueness, and that they're fragile.

14:54
Laura Tedesco
It took months to decide, months and months of talking to experts, talking to the Afghans, to governors, to old men with gray beards, to try to understand, alright, what sort of effort can be made to bring attention to the towers of Ghazni, these two minarets, and the most practical way to preserve them, in a security situation that was not very permissive— meaning it wasn't safe to be hanging out around the minarets of Ghazni for too long.

15:50
Laura Tedesco
"August 25, 2010, Ghazni. Is it that I am somewhat overwhelmed by all the new experiences? I am feeling shut down and awkward and quiet. This morning, while riding in the MRAP with the Polish soldiers, and seated next to me was the soldier designated to protect me. He was so un-self-conscious, and he smiled easily. He seemed embarrassed by my questions, and friendly interest in him. But I think he didn't understand me. His English wasn't very good. We hardly spoke the rest of the day."

16:33
George Gavrilis
Paint a picture of what's it like to walk around and inspect them? Who are you with? What are you wearing? Who comes? Do locals come from Ghazni, because they hear Americans or they're looking at the minarets? Talk about that.

16:47
Laura Tedesco
So as I said before, I couldn't make any movement without a full contingent of a military escort. It was pretty standard. Not just for me, to make that clear. It was either with the Polish military— that was their so-called battle space, when there was a big NATO coalition of forces all across Afghanistan. So I was working closely with the Polish military, and later with the American military. 

17:19 

Laura Tedesco

I would go out with, I don't remember the exact number, I'd have to look at pictures, but maybe four MRAPs, which are big vehicles, up armored vehicles where you pile in four or five, six individuals. There's usually a gunner standing, like in the center out of a little kind of hatch out of the top, looking around, as one is driving to make sure that the convoy wouldn't be ambushed or threatened in some way.

17:44
Laura Tedesco
And what could normally be a seven-minute drive ends up being like a 45-minute drive because you're going slow. And there's a lot of vehicles involved. There's a lot of logistics. I was assigned, or I should say, a Polish soldier was assigned to me, meaning his charge was to make sure I didn't wander off. And also to make sure I didn't fall and break my ankle or do something stupid. This Polish soldier who didn't really speak any English, and that was fine, totally fine. He knew what to do. And I knew to follow the rules.

18:24
Laura Tedesco
So what was I wearing? I don't really remember, I know, I had these boots that I would wear, whenever I was in sort of my utility boots. And a flak jacket, like clothing-wise, I don't remember, but I do remember wearing a flak jacket and a helmet. And I would usually put a headscarf under the helmet. I don't know why; I didn't really need to do that.

18:46
Laura Tedesco
And we'd arrive at the minarets. I must have been there, I don't know maybe a dozen times. You walk around, you look at the foundations, you take pictures, you study the brickwork as best you can, try to take in the landscape overall.

19:06
Laura Tedesco
And there would always be the local Afghans who would wander over or come over because when they see a military convoy, maybe they have a grievance they want to share or they have a question they want to ask or a complaint. There were plenty of locals, usually children and men— I almost never saw women— who would approach and address whoever the military was I was with, they weren't interested in what I was doing.

19:33
George Gavrilis
And when you're there at this archaeological site, and you assess it, and presumably you entertain options as to what needs to be done. So, what is your conclusion with the minarets, and what is possible for you and your colleagues to do?

19:46
Laura Tedesco
There was no conclusion that first visit. No conclusion could be made after one brief 30-minute assessment of a thousand-year-old monument. Impossible. I didn't know enough. I couldn't possibly know enough. I was no expert. So, you look, you observe, try to tap into some knowledge you may have gained before about, oh, okay, brickwork, what is the—you know, the details. The... is the structure leaning? Is it hollow? What's going on?

20:22 

Laura Tedesco

Like, okay, I had read all about them, of course, but reading something and then when you see it up close and personal, it's a different kind of experience. The conclusion took nearly ten months to arrive at, after my first visit to Ghazni.

20:40
Laura Tedesco
So it became really clear, as I was making multiple trips to Ghazni, and assessing what is possible here, you know, who can we find to help do some preservation work on the monuments and that it's not going to cost millions of dollars to do because there wasn't that kind of money to spend. The conclusion was, fast forwarding, we're in a seismic zone, and there is a threat of earthquakes. I wasn't really concerned that the minarets would be targeted by forces of darkness to destroy them. I was concerned with a kind of general stability of them.

21:25
Laura Tedesco
And to try to undertake the preservation, or the stabilization of a monument like that, it's a multi-year undertaking, with scaffolding and experts and you know, then you need lodging and food. And so none of that was going to be possible because it just couldn't be accommodated in Ghazni. 

21:49 

Laura Tedesco

So in the course of investigating what might be possible, we looked at what was at the time relatively new technology, where you do a 3D scan, taking photographs with a special equipment and a computer to get a very detailed measurement and scanned and photographic image of a standing monument.

22:15
Laura Tedesco
And the idea behind doing that is, in principle, if these towers were to fall one day, we could have the data to have them be rebuilt. Could they be rebuilt perfectly? No, but it would be enough information to make an attempt. It took a very long time to arrive at, how do we try to make an effort to preserve these very rare monuments, really, very few of their kind, existing. And given the realities of, it's just not really very safe to hang out here for too long.

22:57
Laura Tedesco
We invited two experts from the National Park Service, these two great guys from Washington, who'd never been to Afghanistan before and they show up and, you know, with a carload of equipment to carry out this work. We helicopter out to Ghazni. I remember it was in July, so it was brutally hot— by 6 AM, it's already, you're already cooking out there. And we set up the equipment and within two hours, it was so hot that all the equipment starts shutting down, and we can't do the work that we've got. And we've got eight hours over a couple of days to carry out this scanning project. 

23:46
Laura Tedesco
And what was funny is we had met with the governor of Ghazni Province, who had promised us, Oh, yes, yes, we're going to provide all of the peripheral security for you. I'm going to have my police force guarding you. They're going to stay there all night long so that when you come back the next day, nothing will be tampered with. No one will have planted an IED overnight. Or you know, done something nefarious. And they'll bring you lunch, which they did, but they charged us all like ten dollars a piece for this kabob that was full of gristle. Anyway, everybody's got to make a buck. Right?

24:28
Laura Tedesco
Finally, we get the equipment working again, and the scanning is ongoing. And it's, you know, 110 degrees and there's only a small sliver of two feet of shade. But you just got a project to do, get it done. And we pack up and go back. And there was a way that the military could, from this like, big hot air balloon, they were all over hanging above all over military bases across Afghanistan— it looks sort of like a Goodyear Blimp, but it has cameras in it. And so we could watch the police force guarding the minarets as they were promised by the governor to make sure nothing, you know, tricky happened for us the next day.

25:11
Laura Tedesco
And we saw that within 45 minutes of our having left— this American crew and accompanying military— all of the police left, so the site was left unguarded all night long. You know, you just go with it. And so the same thing the next day, we woke up in the morning at the crack of dawn, picked up some donuts on the way and then started our scanning again.

25:37
George Gavrilis
Where do you get doughnuts in Afghanistan?

25:40
Laura Tedesco
George, I'm joking.

25:44
George Gavrilis
Oh, okay. Well, but I remember distinctly that some of the facilities in the bases like the NATO, especially the American ones had, like, a panoply of American fast food available.

25:53
Laura Tedesco
Yeah, some of the bigger bases did, not— not this one in Ghazni. I don't— there was no Burger King, or Subway, or Pizza Hut.

26:01
George Gavrilis
When you were in Ghazni, at least during the initial trips, what went through your mind, I'm wondering if you were worried for your safety since you were so out and so exposed?

26:10
Laura Tedesco
Um, my safety was not my first consideration, because I knew the security at least, was there. And I was only there for a brief time, you know, like a few days at a time. I wasn't going out on patrols with soldiers. Those were the people whose safety was more central in their thinking. I wasn't doing that. And so I didn't worry too much about my safety. And I didn't know what to expect, either.

26:49
Laura Tedesco
"August 23, 2010, Ghazni. Arrived by helicopter from Kabul with stunning aerial views. 50 minutes in the air, and nearly alone on the helicopter, and meeting with Colonel Padilla, the Army Civil Affairs officer, and Marek, the Polish archaeologist. Discussion of regional sites and monuments. Then two rocket attacks near the PRT, and spent time in the bunker with the Polish military. Funny how all the while in the bunker, I could only seem to think about what they thought of me."

27:28
George Gavrilis
You have this story about being caught in a rocket attack at the Polish military base, I think, or the PRT.

27:35
Laura Tedesco
Yeah, the PRT.

27:37
George Gavrilis
The Provincial Reconstruction Team.

27:39
Laura Tedesco
It was the day I arrived for the very first time in Ghazni. I remember sitting in a makeshift corrugated metal building with plywood floors, and tables and chairs, all portable stuff. We're having a very serious meeting about our trip the next day to go visit the towers, the minarets of Ghazni, and to meet the governor, and what's the schedule, and how's it all gonna roll. 

28:06

Laura Tedesco

And we're in the middle of a conversation in the afternoon and a rocket landed— I don't know the distance, but it was very loud. And it was very close. My body vibrated. Or it felt very close to me, in my perception, I don't mean to me personally.

28:27
Laura Tedesco
I didn't know what it was at first, because I'd never heard or felt anything like that. And the people I was in the meeting with knew immediately what it was. And they said, Oh, that one was close, we need to get out. I was ushered into a bunker of sorts. It's like those big cement, T walls. They're called T walls with a cement covering over the top. There's about maybe 20 feet long, and about inside, maybe eight feet wide, about the size of a shipping container that I described before. The inside— there are cinder blocks with some planks of wood as benches.

29:12
Laura Tedesco
I was ushered into that and told to sit tight. As I was there, it filled up with Polish soldiers, as well, who were also sitting tight with me. And a couple of German Shepherd dogs, who I think were part of their protection team. There was no one to talk to, which I think was probably appropriate. No one seemed very talkative anyway. I remember thinking, I probably should be scared, but I don't feel scared. I just wonder if these soldiers think I'm cute. That's all I could bring myself to think of, George. Seriously.

29:58
George Gavrilis
What do you think that was?

30:00
Laura Tedesco
I don't know, so that I didn't have to think about being scared or because that's all my shallow mind could come up with? I don't know. And for years, I was embarrassed that that was what I thought when I was sitting in there. And I was like that, well, that was a rocket attack and all I can muster is to wonder if those Polish soldiers think I'm cute. Like, seriously.

30:26
George Gavrilis
But I love your honesty.

30:28
Laura Tedesco
Huh.

30:33
George Gavrilis
You've been listening to Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. To stay in touch, also follow us on Instagram at the_monuments_woman. Join us next week when we dive deeper.

30:54
George Gavrilis
This show is produced by Christian D. Bruun and May Eleven Projects. It is recorded by Audivita Studios, and edited by Shaun Hettinger and Greg Williams. The theme song is This Love by Ariana Delawari, featuring Salar Nader.