He Loves Soup. I Love Soup.

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00:04

Laura Tedesco

I had an email exchange with an Afghan who I've known 10, 11 years, who worked in the culture sector, and he's trying to get out of the country with his children and grandchildren. He was asking me, How does he get out of the country? My response was, I don't know how you do that. And I closed the email with, we must keep hope, even if he's desperate to get out and the winter is coming. I don't know what his situation is. Does he have enough food for his whole family? I— I didn't get that personal with him. But, uhm. 

00:40

Laura Tedesco

It's a lot of person-centered work that I'm doing right now. It's not in the abstract. I am communicating with many people on a daily basis where I take time to write thoughtful emails back to them. Because I don't want my emails to be thoughtless.

00:59

George Gavrilis

Have there been moments when you've been at a loss for what to say?

01:12

Laura Tedesco

Oh, many moments, and sometimes I have to wait days before I can think of how to answer a particular person's pleas, as in, you know, to help them. Some days, I just don't have it in me. While I sit comfortably in my house with a fridge full of food, I don't know what to say. 

01:24

George Gavrilis
This is Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. Today, we are continuing on Laura's journey into Afghanistan. If you are new to this podcast, we recommend going back to start with Episode 1. For everyone else, welcome back. Let's jump in.

01:42

George Gavrilis 

I wonder what's happening at Mes Aynak. Is the place just shuttered and lightly guarded?

01:48

Laura Tedesco

Very good question. I don't know. I saw a BBC clip from early/mid-September, where a BBC journalist went to Mes Aynak. And the Taliban took this journalist around with a camera crew. And the Taliban were all over that archaeological site. They knew where everything was, the Buddha statues that were left in place, the stupas— they had clearly canvassed it well. They, the Taliban, were eager to be on camera, because it was propaganda for them to say how they're going to protect Afghanistan's heritage. That's what was the purpose of this. 

02:28

Laura Tedesco

And they were also there to say that they want the Chinese to start mining. Because I'm pretty familiar with the complexity of issues at Mes Aynak, I was sort of scratching my head and I was like, All right, Taliban, How are you going to do that? How are you going to get the Chinese to mine and protect the stuff? What are you gonna do about that? 

02:49

Laura Tedesco

One of the projects that has been ongoing since August 15, when the Taliban really just sort of Pac-Manned their way into Kabul, is The University of Chicago. I've been working with them for almost 10 years. The State Department has been supporting them to do a lot of work in the National Museum and with this mobile museums project that we've talked about, of sending artifacts out to schools. They helped produce the Nickelsberg book. 

03:18

Laura Tedesco

They've been a very close contact. I kind of refer to them as the dream team for me. And they have been using declassified satellite imagery to monitor the archaeological landscape as a way to track what is happening to Afghanistan's archaeological sites. 

03:38

Laura Tedesco

Now that there's no one on the ground to be able to verify what's happening— Are sites being looted? Are sites being destroyed through bulldozing? Are new buildings going up on old Bala Hissars? You can see all of this through very high definition satellite imagery.

04:00

Laura Tedesco

That's something that's ongoing, and I hope will continue for many months to come, because that's very important information, because that's really going to touch on the illegal traffic of antiquities out of Afghanistan. And we're already expecting to see a lot of that.

04:17

George Gavrilis 

So all of these marvelously precise satellite photos that The University of Chicago team is getting— Are they seeing any evidence of looting or even smaller things that are of concern, activity around archaeological sites that shouldn't be there? 

04:31

Laura Tedesco

Right, right. My last update from The University of Chicago on precisely what they're seeing, it's about 10 days old. They were not seeing an increase in looting since August 15. But they did see very active looting starting about the time the North fell, even as much as in the summer of 2020. And then you have to remember, in the winter, the snow is covering the ground, and it's too cold and the ground is hard, so it's difficult to dig, or bulldoze.

05:06

Laura Tedesco

What the satellite imagery was showing was a real uptick in wanton, bulldozing excavation at known archaeological sites in the north, that likely would have been part of this Bactrian tradition, like we've talked about the Bactrian treasure from Jowzjan. So whatever those looters are finding, it's now probably circulating on the illegal art market. 

05:33

George Gavrilis 

And here's an important question. Those satellite photos that were detecting pre-August 15 looting, were those in districts that had fallen to the Taliban or before the fall to the Taliban?

05:46

Laura Tedesco

Okay, so you've asked the same question that I asked myself.

05:50

George Gavrilis 

Right, 'coz I want to know who is responsible.

05:52

Laura Tedesco

Exactly. I simply have not had a chance to align the precise GPS location of where this looting is taking place in the north, and then cross check that with what was happening with Taliban takeover in the north, like, who was controlling the space, on the date that a satellite image captured illegal excavation of archaeological sites. Was it the Taliban? Or was it another power broker in that area who had control?

06:24

Laura Tedesco

So it's clear that the previous Republic of Afghanistan government authorities had lost control. But there was this intervening period between complete takeover by the Taliban and other power brokers. Do you see what I'm saying? 

06:40

George Gavrilis 

Yeah, I see.

06:41

Laura Tedesco

So, you've asked a great question. And I actually am planning to go to Chicago in about a month to talk to this team precisely about this.

06:52

George Gavrilis 

Wow. We'll stay tuned, huh?

06:58

Laura Tedesco

So it'd be really interesting to find out. But why documenting this is important— it won't prevent the artifacts from going onto the illegal market. They're probably already flowing and might have made their way now into a Central Asian country. And they're on their way to Europe, or East Asia, or somewhere in the Gulf, where a lot of this illegal purchasing takes place.

07:25

Laura Tedesco

If we can document through the satellite imagery, looting, and we know what archaeological sites those were, like, were they Bactrian? Were they Buddhist? Were they early Islamic?, and then we start to see a kind of injection into the art market of these types of artifacts. It helps to triangulate the information in a way to better know, oh, these probably came from Afghanistan. And they were looted in the summer of 2020. And now they're showing up in a gallery in Antwerp, or in New York, for example, or in Sharjah, or Dubai, or, you know.  

08:10

George Gavrilis 

Wow. What could they have possibly found?

08:11

Laura Tedesco
Oh— 

08:12

George Gavrilis 

—digging up these sights the way they did?

08:15

Laura Tedesco

Oh, if they found tombs, I mean, the tombs could have had a great deal of wealth. Gold, turquoise, lapis, you know, glitzy material that you would see in the Bactrian treasure, which is safely stored in the presidential palace right now.

08:34

George Gavrilis 

Are you saying that with great certainty or it's a hope?

08:38

Laura Tedesco

No, I'm reasonably confident that actually the material stored in the palace remains stored in the central bank vault. 

08:46

George Gavrilis 

Is that because the Taliban doesn't have the combination?

08:49

Laura Tedesco

I don't know… No one left them the key [laughs] … I don't know. 

08:55

George Gavrilis 

I'm presuming it's more than one of those gym locker combinations with three numbers that you have to get right. 

09:01

Laura Tedesco

—like yeah, a padlock where you spin it and you gotta get the number. 

09:03

George Gavrilis 

Yeah— 

09:04

Laura Tedesco

I don't—

09:05

George Gavrilis 

Oh, damn. I skipped the number again. I can't open it. 

09:08

Laura Tedesco

I don't think that's it.

09:09

George Gavrilis 

Try again. Remember that? 

09:10

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

09:11

George Gavrilis 

Remember those days? 

09:12

Laura Tedesco

I don't think that's it or like a piece of tape over the door with someone's signature. So like, if a door isn't open, and the tape is broken, you know, it's been broken into. 

09:22

George Gavrilis 

Yeah. But damn, but what you're saying about tombs that might have been looted is that there could have been potentially amazing stuff. 

09:30

Laura Tedesco

And oh, and yeah. I think that we can say that with a lot of confidence. 

09:39

George Gavrilis 

Yeah. Well, how do you feel about publicizing this kind of stuff? Is it generally good to let it be known out there in the ether, that there are satellite photos showing looting, that you know where the looting is taking place, you know what kinds of artifacts would generally come out of these areas— Does that help deter looters? 

10:00

Laura Tedesco

That's the idea. Probably not deter looters—

10:04

George Gavrilis 

I guess the buyers, potential buyers—

10:05

Laura Tedesco 

That's the idea, that it would de-incentivize the buyers. Is that effective? I don't know.

10:17

George Gavrilis 

And here's another question. 

10:18

Laura Tedesco 

Go ahead. 

10:19

George Gavrilis 

Do you, then, through your State Department colleagues and bosses, take this to the Taliban and say, Look, guys, you got to clamp down on this. Or is that not even a possibility given where we are? 

10:31

Laura Tedesco

Today, if I were to ask my State Department colleagues, who are twice a week meeting with the Taliban— Hey, guys, would you mind raising with the Taliban this issue of looting of archaeological sites? My State Department colleagues would probably say, No, that is not a priority. We've got other priorities that are invisible to you, Tedesco. And looting of archaeological sites is not one of those 27 priorities we're trying to get negotiated. But I still make the ask.

11:09

Laura Tedesco

You know, on a not irregular basis, I still ask like, hey, when you're with, you know, would you mind just asking them about the National Museum and on only one occasion, was my ask honored to ask the Taliban to please protect the National Museum. And I got a response that they said they would, they were committed to it.

11:30

Laura Tedesco

I wonder who's tending to the garden. And you know, the Rose Garden is amazing. But more importantly than the garden, I wonder who's tending to anything inside. I don't know. I still have not heard that the Taliban have appointed a new director.  

11:46

George Gavrilis

Yeah. 

11:52

George Gavrilis

Back in August, there was a poet and folk singer, who I think in Khost City, was dragged out of his home and killed. Then there was a poet in eastern Afghanistan, who was killed as well, just in October. There were the wedding guests that were killed on Friday. 

12:12

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, right.

12:13

George Gavrilis

— in Nangarhar for allegedly playing music at the wedding, which is now banned. 

12:17

Laura Tedesco

Right.

12:18

George Gavrilis

And what's both tragic and interesting to me is that the Taliban isn't necessarily behind all of these. If you're a creative person in Afghanistan, and you rely on art or singing or culture, it's not just the Taliban that are your enemies—

12:32

Laura Tedesco

— oh, yeah.

12:33

George Gavrilis

—it's potentially Islamic State or somebody that wants to silence you. This Pashtun poet was known for composing poetry about the unification of all Pashtuns. And so he was hated by Pakistani security forces, and so the Taliban simply looked the other way, while covert forces operating on behalf of Pakistan killed him.

12:56

Laura Tedesco

I don't know who may have been motivated to kill this poet. The fact that he was killed is tragic. It really underlines the power of culture and art, that his poetry was powerful enough to have him killed.

13:16

George Gavrilis

That's right.

13:18

Laura Tedesco

So that in itself is a reason to continue efforts to preserve heritage and to preserve culture. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda thought the Buddhas of Bamiyan were symbolically significant enough to want to obliterate them. The U.S. can have a very powerful counter-message, if we say we respect heritage enough to preserve it.

13:47

George Gavrilis

You're absolutely right. Incidentally, the poet who was murdered, he didn't make international news. 

13:54

Laura Tedesco

It often doesn't. 

13:54

George Gavrilis

This was largely reported in Dari language and Pashto language, social media. 

13:59

Laura Tedesco

It often doesn't. 

14:00

George Gavrilis

His name was Helaamand Zhwanday.

14:05

Laura Tedesco

Suppressing the artists and killing the artists isn't anything that ISIS-K or the Taliban invented. That's for sure. 

14:14

George Gavrilis

No, ancient times. Yeah. And of course, we perfected it in the modern era. We know what happened in Europe during the wars. And hey, thank you for that observation about the power of culture. 

14:28

Laura Tedesco

Yeah. We often don't realize how powerful it is until it's gone.

14:34

George Gavrilis 

Hey, how's Franck doing? Or Franck— Franck is the proper French pronunciation. I don't pronounce French well, FYI. 

14:42

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

14:43

George Gavrilis 

I pronounce it pretty dreadfully.

14:45

Laura Tedesco

Do you? Oh, yeah, the French will mock you for that mercilessly. 

14:49

George Gavrilis 

I get mocked at home. I get mocked at home.

14:51

Laura Tedesco

They'll just roll their eyes.

14:54

George Gavrilis 

Which is a little bit of a problem when you pronounce French as brutally as I do. And you're working on a book on a French city. Oops. 

15:03

Laura Tedesco

Oh, are you? 

15:04

George Gavrilis 

Yeah, I'm working on a book about the history of Marseille. 

15:07

Laura Tedesco

I did not know that. 

15:11

George Gavrilis 

Yeah, I'm full of surprises. 

15:12

Laura Tedesco

You are. We got to talk more about that. 

15:15

George Gavrilis 

Yeah, Marseille is pretty cool. 

15:16

Laura Tedesco

Oh, yeah. Yes, it is. Talk about complex cities. 

15:21

George Gavrilis 

Complex city. Great new museum, by the way, relatively new museum. Think it's called the Museum of Mediterranean Civilizations. Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful, new museum on the edge of the harbor, right by the ramparts of this fort protecting the harbor. 

15:37

Laura Tedesco

But you asked me about Franck. He's doing great. He's doing great. And he does not listen to the podcast. Not really. I mean, I think he's on Episode Four.

15:50

George Gavrilis 

As he hasn't gotten to your daughter's episode yet? 

15:52

Laura Tedesco

No. We haven't kept it a secret. 

15:56

George Gavrilis 

Yeah.

15:57

Laura Tedesco

I was saying to Franck just two days ago, that when I stopped traveling, not just to Afghanistan, but trapped like the rest of the world, we all stopped traveling 19 months ago at the start of COVID. And it was a very big change for me, because I probably spent four or five months a year away from home. Not all at one time, but making multiple trips a year and you know, go for two, three weeks at a time, and commuting to Washington, D.C. 

16:24

Laura Tedesco

And suddenly, at the start of COVID, I was home all the time. My big outings were to the grocery store. Like that felt like a big day for me. And the first few weeks of that were kind of bumpy, you know, where I was itching to, I want to go somewhere. I'm supposed to go to Kyrgyzstan and that was cancelled. 

16:49

Laura Tedesco

But I said to Franck the other day, how much I enjoy spending time with him. And I wouldn't want to spend time with anybody else. Did you ever see that movie Best in Show?

17:02

George Gavrilis 

Yes. Yeah. 

17:04

Laura Tedesco

There's one quote from that, where it's like, one of the characters says about her ancient husband. And Franck is not ancient, he's actually younger than me. Where she says, we could talk or not talk— 

17:16

George Gavrilis 

Or not talk for hours.

17:07

Laura Tedesco

—or not talk for hours. Sometimes we will eat soup.

17:22

George Gavrilis 

He loves soup. I love soup.

17:25

Laura Tedesco

It's the absurdity— that whole movie was hilarious. That's sort of how I feel like sometimes we could talk or not talk for hours. 

17:33

George Gavrilis

Would you believe that Antonio and I always use that phrase about each other? 

17:36

Laura Tedesco

Do you?

17:39

George Gavrilis

Yeah. Wow. Parallel lives, how funny.

17:41

Laura Tedesco

Right? Yeah. Anyway, so Franck's doing great. Thanks for asking. 

17:47

George Gavrilis

Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad to hear that. He is the only Frenchman I know who for breakfast has Coke with doughnuts.

17:58

Laura Tedesco

Ah, yeah. He likes his sweets. It's usually Diet Coke, for the record. 

18:04

George Gavrilis 

Yeah. He's very trim. Yeah.

18:07

Laura Tedesco

I don't know. He has a sweet tooth. 

18:04

George Gavrilis 

Yeah.

18:10

Laura Tedesco

I always buy him chocolate.

18:16

George Gavrilis
You've been listening to Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. To stay in touch, also follow us on Instagram at the_monuments_woman. Join us next week when we dive deeper.

18:33

George Gavrilis
This show is produced by Christian D. Bruun and May Eleven Projects. It is recorded by Audivita Studios, and edited by Shaun Hettinger and Greg Williams. The theme song is This Love by Ariana Delawari, featuring Salar Nader.

Ep 22: He Loves Soup. I Love Soup. — Unknowns, Part 2 of 2

Topics Covered in this Episode
Update on Mes Aynak
The University of Chicago mapping project
Documenting satellite imagery of archaeological sites
Where is the Bactrian Treasure now?
Satellite photos and looters
State Department communication with the Taliban
The National Museum under the Taliban
The killing of artists, and the importance to protect culture
Laura's French husband

Recorded on November 1, 2021