Raggedy Ann Doll

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00:07

Laura Tedesco

I was sent to look at the Citadel by myself. Other people that I was with had other activities that they needed to do. So I could take it all in without having to really talk to anyone. In the interior of the Herat Citadel in the late afternoon, the setting sun creates the most beautiful play of light and shadow within the Citadel. And so I was able to explore, and what felt very personal to me.

00:45

George Gavrilis
This is Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. If you are new to this podcast, we recommend going back to start with Episode 1. For everyone else, welcome back. Let's jump in.

01:02

George Gavrilis

Hey, so the Citadel is largely Timurid, right? Maybe not its foundations, but much of what we see today?

01:08

Laura Tedesco

Much of what we see today, it's partially Timurid. Some of the interior structures in the Citadel are not Timurid. It's part of this kind of amalgam. It's sort of like 18th, 19th century additions—

01:22

George Gavrilis

Okay.

01:23

Laura Tedesco

But that's the lifecycle of a big monument. You know, things change. We've talked about this before.

01:29

George Gavrilis

Yeah.

01:30

Laura Tedesco

The exterior walls and one of the surviving ramparts and towers is absolutely Timurid and you can still see some remnants of the characteristic blue Timurid tile. It was a capital. It was a Timurid capital.

01:52

George Gavrilis

Who were the Timurids?

01:55

Laura Tedesco
So it was a empire founded by Tamerlane, the kind of brutal conqueror from Central Asia. Tamerlane and his successors, his progeny, were very much supporters of the arts and culture and literature and science as well as being brutal murderers.

02:15

George Gavrilis

As supporters of the arts usually are.

02:17

Laura Tedesco
[laughing] Right. One of those contradictions.

02:23

George Gavrilis

Right.

02:24

Laura Tedesco

The Timurid Empire basically had two capitals: one in Samarkand, which is now Uzbekistan, and one in Herat. And the Herat capital came a little bit later. It was founded by Tamerlane's grandson. It was a center of learning and arts and monuments and thinking.

02:48

Laura Tedesco

A lot of the architectural and artistic styles that were flourishing in the Timurid Empire had a great influence on artistic styles of Renaissance Europe. The art historians who are deep in this subject, they credit this. But it's not often thought of, the Central Asian influences, on what we think of as Western canons of art.

03:22

George Gavrilis

I think you told me that the Citadel restoration costs something like $1.2 million.

03:27

Laura Tedesco

That was the U.S. investment.

03:28

George Gavrilis

Right.

03:29

Laura Tedesco

Yes.

03:30

George Gavrilis

Which to the average person, is a lot of money. But in terms of restoration of a major structure, or the way our government usually spends money on other stuff, I don't know, like paint for bathrooms in federal buildings, $1.2 million is like a shoestring budget.

03:46

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

03:47

George Gavrilis

How did you get it done? How did you renovate the most prominent historical structure in western Afghanistan for that price?

03:58

Laura Tedesco

And I would like to say, the finest Citadel remaining in all of Central Asia. I just want to point that out. So George, a couple of things. You refer to it, you're so sweet. You refer to it like I did the restoration. Let me clarify. I simply advocated for restoration. I never mixed mortar or laid a brick. Okay. So I have to emphasize how I supported the work, but didn't do the work.

04:32

George Gavrilis

As an interesting aside, the English language—

04:35

Laura Tedesco

Yes.

04:36

George Gavrilis

—is not kitted well enough with verbs and vocabulary for that kind of a distinction. If you and I were speaking Turkish, it would be abundantly clear, because you don't just restore, you can also cause something to be restored.

04:51

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

04:52

George Gavrilis

Or cause to cause something to be restored. And you do that with the same verb, but just adding a letter or two. So okay, tell us how you caused the causing of the restoration of the Herat Citadel.

05:04

Laura Tedesco

And to mention again, the restoration was already underway before I even was hired by the State Department.

05:12

George Gavrilis

You did mention that.

05:14

Laura Tedesco

I kind of had to adopt this project, which I happily adopted, but others had really, you know, shepherded to the kickoff— others in the State Department. And the German government was also contributing to the work. So this is to your point of $1.2 million. You are correct, it's a very small sum of money to restore something that's the size of a high school football stadium.

05:38

Laura Tedesco

That was thanks to the implementing partner who made it work, you know, and hired hundreds of workmen over the course of this project. Kept them employed for years — workmen who were mixing mortar, laying bricks, shaping brick, moving wheelbarrows — the whole spectrum of what's involved. Trained engineers, students learning to be engineers, architectural historians. That was the budget control responsibility of the implementing partner, which was the Aga Khan.

06:14

George Gavrilis

Well, also pretty serious infusion of cash in the local economy and creation of jobs.

06:20

Laura Tedesco

And that's often an ancillary yet under-discussed benefit to these cultural preservation projects, is the employment and the skill development that they offer. That's employment that's sustained over the course of several years, because these cultural preservation projects are multi-year projects. That's just what it takes to restore old shit. It takes time.

06:52

George Gavrilis

Maybe you never had the chance to talk to some of these workers, like these guys that push a wheelbarrow around the most unskilled workers simply using their strength to do stuff. I wonder if it was a source of pride for them that they got to work on restoring this historically important Citadel, that's part of their city's fabric, their country's history.

07:12

Laura Tedesco

I wonder too. I wonder too.

07:16

George Gavrilis

Like, will they tell their children, I helped restore part of our history?

07:22

Laura Tedesco

I hope so.

07:23

George Gavrilis

Or is their life too much part of the daily struggle that they don't have time to think about that?

07:28

Laura Tedesco

I wish we could ask them.

07:30

George Gavrilis

I wonder if we can, somehow, one day.

07:32

Laura Tedesco

I'm still in touch with some of the workers from that project. Just this week, I received an email from one of the site engineers with whom I remain friendly and in contact. I could ask him. He's in Afghanistan.

07:46

George Gavrilis

It might be nice to come full circle to these people. We often talk about people, like, putting blood, sweat, and tears into their work. These people would have literally sweated, and probably cried, and probably even bled at times, from the physical labor.

08:03

Laura Tedesco
Yeah. Yeah.

08:04

George Gavrilis
Would be interesting to hear their story and what it meant to them.

08:07

Laura Tedesco

Wouldn't it?

08:08

George Gavrilis

Yeah.

08:10
Laura Tedesco

Hey, oral historian—

08:11

George Gavrilis

I just have to learn Dari overnight.

08:13

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

08:22

George Gavrilis

Hey there were not so good moments in Herat, though, right? There were a couple harrowing moments.

08:28

Laura Tedesco

There were. Yeah. So the visit you and I are talking about now, that happened in 2010. And I probably made six trips out to Herat over the course of three or four years.

08:40

Laura Tedesco

Fast forward to, I think the year, George, was 2013, was my last visit to Herat, when I was there to now evaluate a new cultural preservation project, which I had shepherded from the beginning and it was to restore two mausoleums, one Timurid, back to the Timurid Empire, and one with foundations a little earlier from the Ghurid Empire that was short-lived but also fascinating.

09:14

Laura Tedesco

I went with some diplomats to check out the work in progress at the restoration of these two mausoleums in Central Herat. Everything was going great. And we were on the roof of one of them, which is probably like two storeys high off the ground.

09:31

Laura Tedesco

While the engineers are showing us the brickwork that had recently been replaced, very nearby were gunshots. I didn't have time to really assess from which direction they came and from what direction they were going. What I do remember is the security minder, who was assigned to me, who, I think he might have been eight feet tall, because he seemed so big. I'm exaggerating. He wasn't really eight feet tall. But he picked me up, like I was a Raggedy Ann doll.

10:07

Laura Tedesco

And he put me close to him and like turned me on my side and carried me into this little interior closet room, and shielded me. And clearly he knew what he was doing. And then we piled in our up-armored SUVs and went back to what was the American Consulate. It was never clear whether the gunshots were aimed at the group that I was with or not. That was at least never revealed to me.

10:48

Laura Tedesco

I departed Herat the following day. And two days later, an enormous explosion was detonated in front of the Consulate and the entire front of the consulate building was just blasted out. And that was the end of the U.S. Consulate in Herat. And I have never been to Herat since.

11:10

George Gavrilis
Your visit would have been in September of 2013, because the consulate was bombed September 13 of that year, 2013.

11:16

Laura Tedesco

Yeah. Precisely. Precisely.

11:26

George Gavrilis

You've spoken fondly of the security people before. I'm wondering, is it tough not to bond and to become friends with a security guard when this is what you rely on them for?

11:37

Laura Tedesco

I never interacted with them long enough to be like so Hey, where are you from? You know, you married, you have kids, what do you like to read? None of that. That was never part of the dynamic. I don't know what their training was like, but they weren't interested in me as a person. I was not particularly interested in them as people. We were both there to do our jobs, which was the focus of everything.

12:05

Laura Tedesco

So I got friendly with the security guys, but I never knew any of their names, like their real names. They all had a handle.

12:16

George Gavrilis

What would the handles be like? Give us at least a hypothetical example.

12:20

Laura Tedesco
A hypothetical one might be Eagle.

12:23

George Gavrilis

Oh.

12:25

Laura Tedesco

Or it could be like a modification of a last name.

12:28

George Gavrilis

Yeah. Yeah.

12:36

George Gavrilis

Earlier, you talked about one of your implementing partners, the Afghans and the companies that you hired locally to do this work, in most cases, right?

12:44

Laura Tedesco

Hmm.

12:46

George Gavrilis

So tell us a story about some of the Afghans and their organizations that you work with to get the jobs done, either in Herat or elsewhere.

12:52

Laura Tedesco

There was a newly founded cultural preservation organization in Afghanistan. I kind of knew the people working in it through my professional circle of Afghans. I had never worked with them before. And the U.S. had never provided support to their work before. So it was a fairly strong charm offensive towards me that they wanted to receive Embassy support. And I fear that I was regarded as kind of a pushover. I'm less of a pushover now, but at the time, I might have just been—

13:26

George Gavrilis

Why would that have been? Why? You've never struck me as a pushover. Thoughtful, if anything.

13:31

Laura Tedesco

Maybe I was just too nice. I don't know. Let's go back to that another day.

13:37

George Gavrilis

Well, that's a side of you I've never seen, your too-nice side. I mean, you're sweet, but not gratuitously so. You're very honest and direct. And if anything, you can be blunt.

13:48

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, I hope for that.

13:49

George Gavrilis

Yes, congratulations, you've achieved that with me.

13:51

Laura Tedesco

We're on a tangent, George, come on back.

13:55

George Gavrilis

Oh, go on, sorry.

13:57

Laura Tedesco

So, they were really working the charm offensive, and advocating that the United States support a restoration project for an old mausoleum in Lashkar Gah, where they were from, where this organization was originally from. So they knew the environment and how to get work done and who to work with— skilled and unskilled laborers.

14:20

Laura Tedesco

And I was like, this sounds potentially interesting and Lashkar Gah was, you know, a capital of the Ghaznavid Empire, this could really tie into some other policy objectives. So, why don't you come up with a proposal, and a budget and I'll take it back and we'll review? And so they did come up with a proposal on a budget, and the budget was for $1.2 million—

14:47

Laura Tedesco

—which was the same amount we had awarded for the restoration of this football stadium size building. This organization in Lashkar Gah was asking for the same amount of money to restore something that was about the size of, say, a tennis court.

15:06

Laura Tedesco

And I was like, come on, this is absurd, this budget is bonkers. And at the time, I was working with an American diplomat who was based in Lashkar Gah, and we were trying to coordinate our understanding. And I'll never forget this, actually, that American diplomat, he was so angry at this budget. And I think he was kind of burnt out anyway. And he had spent his year or however long he'd been working in Afghanistan, which can be pretty exhausting, and you know, draining.

15:39

Laura Tedesco

And on his last day in the country, before he departed evermore, he sent an email to this implementing organization, basically saying, this is why nothing works in Afghanistan, because you're trying to steal money all the time. And I remember being both shocked and kind of admiring that this guy had the guts to send out an official email impugning an Afghan partner.

16:10

Laura Tedesco

Anyway, we didn't fund the project in Lashkar Gah, until several years later for less than one third of their original budget.

16:20

George Gavrilis

With the same partner?

16:22

Laura Tedesco

With the same partner. And they did, I should note, fantastic work. And it was so well done, that they were given an award from UNESCO.

16:40

George Gavrilis

Okay, Laurie, but see, but that's exactly it. And it brings us right back to what you talked about before, that we all have played a hand in what went down in Afghanistan, and what everything led up to— from the implementers on the ground, who saw it as an opportunity to ask for too much money, even though they were skilled and did amazing work. From people like us, who came in with our hearts full of earnest desire to do great work, and eventually got jaded over time, you know. To the highest political people in Afghanistan, to the highest political people in D.C. We all just pushed everything in this direction. We all just did.

17:24

Laura Tedesco

You know, you may have a point. Yeah. Yep.

17:28

George Gavrilis

And at the end of the day, the fate of Afghanistan is really in the hands of its own people. So.

17:37

Laura Tedesco

It is, it is, yes.

17:51

George Gavrilis

So, Herat fell in July to the Taliban.

17:57

Laura Tedesco

Yep.

17:58

George Gavrilis

It was among the first major cities to fall to the Taliban. And surprisingly so because the city has always been known for having this sense of independence and being separate from the rest of the country and having, you know, relatively powerful warlords and governors and Ismail Khan is a really great example for people that may have heard of him.

18:22

George Gavrilis

And it was a painful fall, not only because the city's culture is so beautiful and so advanced, that I worry that the Taliban would just really drag everything down and try to shut down the very things that Heratis, the people of Herat, love to do, and talk about, and the poetry, and the festivals, and just the spice of their lives they would bring it down.

18:50

George Gavrilis
And what's interesting, is that even though Herat fell very quickly, it was also one of the first cities where people came out in droves, especially women, to protest the Taliban and to demand their rights. And there was something beautiful in seeing that, and how fearless they were.

19:08
George Gavrilis

In Herat, the Taliban has played an interesting political game where they've tried to very expeditiously open and maintain the border crossings with Iran, because so much trade coming in and out that supports the economy.

19:26
George Gavrilis

I remember they produced this very savvy video early on, very soon after the fall of Herat, about Zaranj, one of the main border crossings that's just a couple hours from Herat— that was showing how wonderful trade is flowing now that the Taliban is in control.

19:43
George Gavrilis
And they were interviewing all these Iranian and Afghan truck drivers that were coming in and out, who are praising the Taliban that now they don't have to pay bribes to customs officials to get in and out. And the Taliban has a very clear menu of fees, you know, rather than these unspoken little envelopes and cash that you hand over.

20:00
George Gavrilis

And maybe they'll be uncorrupt for a very long period of time. But that's not going to make life easier for a lot of people that want to live a very open life, for women that want to go out and celebrate their lives and be themselves, for people who want to celebrate the culture of the city and things that the Taliban consider heretical to their beliefs.

20:23

Laura Tedesco

I saw a report in one of the Afghan news outlets called Arianna news, which I follow, and coming out of Herat, the Taliban were making a statement praising the heritage of Herat, casting aspersions on some previous preservation efforts there which I was like, they don't know what they're talking about. And then also making a statement that they intend to work to preserve other monuments in Herat.

20:53
Laura Tedesco
And I found this whole news piece very curious. I am not going to put my money that this is actually going to take place, that what the Taliban are saying that they're sincere. I wonder whether these statements were made for Heratis, for other Afghans, for the international community to read and think like Oh see the Taliban, they're going to preserve heritage also. There was a decently done clip and tweets and Instagrams. So they were really pushing this news out.

21:28

George Gavrilis

Well, I mean, but all cultural heritage work is political somehow—

21:32

Laura Tedesco

It is. Oh, it is.

21:34

George Gavrilis

And we all acknowledge and admit that. I think the difference though, is the U.S. government, we've been open to all cultural heritage preservation, and not only something that coheres with, let's say, the Taliban's particular ideology of Islam and Islamic structures that they deem worthy, while the rest may not be worthy of anything. I also worry that, you know, the Taliban don't exactly have cultural heritage preservation experts or archaeologists on the payroll. So the threat is that preservation to them will be just like pouring concrete around a tomb—

22:10
Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

22:11
George Gavrilis

—that could potentially damage the actual structure.

22:13

Laura Tedesco 

Not known to very many people is a very rich Jewish heritage in Herat. And I've actually visited some of the ancient Jewish sites in the center of Herat, and there is a Jewish cemetery just outside of Herat city that is still present with tombstones, at least it was being tended to. It had a minder on it.

22:38
Laura Tedesco

You just make a lot of great points. And I had worried about the same thing, even if the Taliban were to launch into cultural preservation, I kind of like, grit my teeth a little bit. I was like, oh, guys, just leave them alone. Don't touch the monuments. This is one of the big tragedies in the cultural preservation sector in the last weeks, and what will continue to happen as more Afghans leave.

23:04
Laura Tedesco

It's that all of the bright young Afghans who are skilled in heritage preservation, whether they're archaeologists or museum curators, or historians, or architects, they all want to leave. So that body of knowledge, the human capital, the human capital with all of this knowledge— Can they even get jobs in a Taliban government? If they were to get jobs, would they be reliably paid? But they all really want to leave!

23:46

George Gavrilis

The latest announcements from the Taliban and how they're planning on getting into cultural heritage—does this mean that now more than ever, you, the State Department, the U.S. government needs to get back into the game of cultural heritage preservation, even if it means working with the Taliban in some capacity?

24:03

Laura Tedesco

That is a question that I think about constantly. And I'm often trying to game out in my head, how can the United States stay engaged in cultural preservation? I keep trying to line up colors on the Rubik's cube of how to solve this question. And I can't, it's just too soon to tell. But the short answer is, yeah, it's as needed now as it ever was.

24:37

Laura Tedesco

"October 16, 2011, Herat, Sunday. Spent the day in Herat. Attended the opening of the Herat Citadel. And flew from Kabul with Ambassador Crocker, Ambassador Pierce, and Nancy Dupree. Such a beautiful day. Optimistic and hopeful. What a beautiful monument. Something to remember."

25:13

George Gavrilis
How will the U.S. be remembered in Afghanistan for this work?

25:18

Laura Tedesco

I do remember at the closing ceremony of the Herat Citadel restoration, and that was in late 2011, when the work was largely done, and there was a big ceremony to commemorate the work. And there were lots of fancy dignitaries giving remarks, among which was the Germans who I'd mentioned giving money and including many Afghans and the then Governor of Herat. His last name was Saba, Governor Saba. Very powerful Afghan.

25:56

Laura Tedesco

And in his remarks, he said, of all the things that the United States had done for Herat— building schools, paving roads, irrigation canals, etc. Of all the things that the United States had done for Herat, they would be remembered for supporting the preservation of the Herat Citadel. I've always remembered that, and hoped that it was true.

26:23

George Gavrilis

I guess only some time will tell, right?

26:25

Laura Tedesco

Only time will tell.

26:27

George Gavrilis

Hey, thank you, friend, as you like to say.

26:29

Laura Tedesco

Oh, thanks, friend. Yeah, huh.

26:37

George Gavrilis
You've been listening to Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. To stay in touch, also follow us on Instagram, at the_monuments_woman. Join us next week when we dive deeper.

26:54

George Gavrilis
This show is produced by Christian D. Bruun and May Eleven Projects. It is recorded by Audivita Studios, and edited by Shaun Hettinger and Greg Williams. The theme song is This Love by Ariana Delawari, featuring Salar Nader.

Ep 24: Raggedy Ann Doll — Herat, Part 2 of 2

Topics Covered in this Episode
More on the Herat Citadel
The Timurids
The cost of restoration of Herat Citadel
The Citadel workers
Gunshots at Herat
The end of the American Consulate
The security minders
Implementing partners
Everybody played a hand
Herat today
What's next for Laura, State Department, cultural preservation?
The legacy of US work on Afghanistan cultural restoration

Recorded on October 7, 2021