Episode 27
27 min
February 1, 2022
In this episode of Monuments Woman ...
Laura shares a memory about a media appearance and George talks about his time as an election monitor in Kabul.
00:06
Laura Tedesco
I always had a sense of insecurity in my job that I never knew how long it was going to last. You know, I was hired by the State Department for an assignment that was to be one year long. And I went in with eyes open knowing, okay, after a year, I'll probably have to find another job. But it kept going. And the work kept going. And there were many moments along the way where I was told overtly or not overtly, I don't know, like this cultural stuff, it's not really a priority.
00:44
Laura Tedesco
And so I was acutely aware that my job could go away at any time. But when the movie came out, and that presented an opportunity to go watch the movie at the White House, and to hear President Obama say what he thought was important about culture in general, and preserving culture, specifically in conflict zones, I think it may have given me a little bounce to my step when I put on my tennis shoes and walked back to the subway at the end of that evening at the White House, of like, I'm probably okay with the work for a while more. Because there's a lot more to do.
01:38
George Gavrilis
As we near the end of the podcast, I want to reflect on the journey across Laura's Afghanistan. The Buddhist treasures of Mes Aynak, the two lone minarets in the plains of Ghazni, the legendary Citadel of Herat, the ornate ruins of Noh Gumbad, Central Asia's oldest mosque. Then, there are the stories of Afghanistan's metropolis, the beloved and troubled city of Kabul with its cultural sites and its National Museum, bursting at the seams with artifacts from Hellenistic, Animist, Zoroastrian, Buddhist, and Islamic traditions.
02:15
George Gavrilis
But no journey is complete without good travel companions, and Laura was blessed with many as she worked to preserve Afghanistan's archaeological heritage and culture. There was Mr. Massoudi, the museum director who dared to imagine a new museum. Tõno Foraster, the Spanish architect who designed the kind of museum Afghanistan deserved, but to this day has not been built. Omar Sultan, the deputy minister who encouraged Laura to keep driving. Robert Nickelsberg, the photographer whose pictures showed Afghans pride and place in their monuments.
02:54
George Gavrilis
The iconic Nancy Dupree, who inspired Laura over Korean food. Laura's colleagues at the Embassy and back at the State Department who understood that culture must always have a seat at the table. The many Afghans who carried out the work, from seasoned archaeologists to workers toiling with calloused hands across the country's sites. And there was Rita Wright, Laura's graduate school mentor who took part in digs across Afghanistan back in the 1970s, and who shaped Laura's thinking when it was her turn 40 years later.
03:31
George Gavrilis
As we promised at the outset, this podcast was not going to be a history lesson about empires rising and falling. Instead, it was a story of what it takes to be an archaeologist in the toughest geographies, and how to preserve heritage and history even in times of war.
03:50
George Gavrilis
In this episode—just one week away from our finale—Laura shares a memory about a media appearance and I talk about my time as an election monitor in Kabul. These stories bring us to reflect on how and whether the work of the past 20 years mattered in Afghanistan. There is no easy answer. And we have an update on the beloved Mr. Massoudi.
04:21
George Gavrilis
This is Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. We will be wrapping up Laura's journey in Afghanistan in the next two episodes. If you are new to this podcast, we recommend starting with Episode 1. For everyone else, welcome back. Let's jump in.
04:46
Afghan Host
"Welcome back. You are watching Ariana Television."
04:59
Laura Tedesco
"The preservation of Afghanistan's heritage? I think that the international community can do a better job at listening to what is most important to Afghans … and then responding to the needs that Afghanistan is setting for itself … And, I don't mean just throwing money at projects, I don't think that is a solution. But, these things take time, so coming up with strategic plans that are practical and doable in the context of Afghanistan in the preservation of its heritage. So, how best can the international community help? It is to listen to the needs and consider what is most practical for this context."
05:58
George Gavrilis
You were on a TV show in Afghanistan, in Kabul, right?
06:02
Laura Tedesco
Yeah, yeah. So I was a guest on a talk show. The purpose of the show was to talk about Afghanistan's heritage and why its preservation was important. It was pitched to me at the time as the Charlie Rose of Afghan TV, you know, a very serious roundtable discussion on serious topics. I think the year was 2014. Maybe it was 2015. I don't remember the precise year. I do remember it was winter time, and it was cold.
06:32
Laura Tedesco
The Embassy allowed me to do this. I went with our press liaison to this big TV studio somewhere in Kabul, and like very cool glass building and, you know, fancy furniture and it looked super professional. I was going to be on with a few other Afghans— Mr. Massoudi, Omar Sultan, who we talked about before, and my press colleague who is Afghan American, and he was going to share his own views and help translate for me.
07:06
George Gavrilis
What was that like?
07:07
Laura Tedesco
We arrived at this big network. And we're ushered into this green room and offered tea and snacks. And I'm wearing my work boots, because they said Charlie Rose, I thought I'd be sitting behind a table, no one would see my shoes, or actually my pants. So I made sure my top was okay. And I had a headscarf with me.
07:29
Laura Tedesco
We're sitting in the green room. And the producer said to me, Oh, hi, I see you're here. If you'd like to have your makeup done, we've got a makeup crew here. They could help you with your makeup. I was like no, no, I'm good. I'm good. Now it's not really my style. Thanks, anyway. And then a few minutes later, he comes back and he's like, so we've still got some time until we're going to start recording. So you know, if you'd like your makeup done, the ladies in the makeup room, they could help you out. No problem, they have everything. I was like no, no, I'm good. Really, thanks, though. Thanks so much. I'm all good. I did not get the hint. And he comes by a third time and he's like, so there's time to have your makeup done. And I was like, oh, okay, I need to have my makeup done.
08:17
Laura Tedesco
And I was so glad that I did because I ended up going by myself into this makeup studio, and there were three or four women in there, and this is what they do, they are makeup artists for TV programs. And I think all of them spoke English, or most of them— I was able to speak with them in English.
08:33
Laura Tedesco
I got a chance to chat with them about some things, which was very interesting because there weren't a lot of opportunities for me to have one-on-one with a group of Afghan women. I just didn't have enough of those opportunities. And I remember asking them, so I've got my headscarf— how should I fix the scarf on my head for this? And they were like, "Don't wear your scarf. You don't have to wear it. Please don't wear it. Don't cover your hair."
09:05
George Gavrilis
Wow.
09:06
Laura Tedesco
So I didn't, as a, what I at the time thought of as solidarity with them, in that they were asking me not to cover my hair. And, I'm like, nothing too fancy, please don't put too much makeup on me, I want to look natural. I came out looking like a Kabuki actor. My eyebrows were drawn on. And I had layer upon layer of mascara, and lipstick, and bright blush. I remember feeling very unnatural with the amount of makeup that they put on me.
09:39
Laura Tedesco
And we go onto the stage for the discussion. And I realized, there's no table. It's four or five chairs positioned in a semi-circle. I have my hideous work boots on, which are evident on camera. I'm wearing work pants, because I think I had been in the field that day, I don't know, at Mes Aynak, and I was not dressed for TV appearance.
10:01
George Gavrilis
Right, So there's one Laurie above the waist and another below.
10:05
Laura Tedesco
Yes! It's like— I actually have it on DVD. We could watch it together sometime.
10:11
George Gavrilis
I would love that.
10:12
Laura Tedesco
The whole interview. Yeah, yeah.
10:14
George Gavrilis
Yeah, it's very stirring what the women told you.
10:16
Laura Tedesco
It was stirring. But back to your original question. Afghanistan's heritage was a topic that was obviously of interest enough to be broadcast in sort of a roundtable discussion on what was at that time, evidently a very popular talk show on Afghan TV. I was honored to be part of it aside from how I felt about it.
Laura Tedesco
10:50
George Gavrilis
When I was in Kabul in September of 2010, I was serving as an observer for the parliamentary elections. My job was to go to various polling stations. I was stationed in the Kabul district to make sure that they were prepared for the elections. And then on the day of the elections to choose several different polling centers around the city and to see the voting in place.
11:15
George Gavrilis
I went to several with a colleague of mine. We had to decide what polling center we would be at to observe the counting of the ballots, because you can only be at one place, obviously, and you want to be there for the entire counting.
11:29
George Gavrilis
We chose this relatively poor district, and the polling center was a school. We get to the school, and the school is pitch black. The school, even though it's in a densely populated part of Kabul, does not have electricity. Why? Because students go to school during the day, so they use the light that comes in through the windows, and you don't need electricity.
11:55
George Gavrilis
And that meant that the ballots that were being counted at that particular polling station were being counted by the light of lanterns that had been donated by the United Nations for the election. And my enduring memory— this was a women's polling station— was watching the women count the ballots, making sure that the ballots aren't spoiled, making sure that there are no irregularities, making sure that they're going to the proper candidate, while they're being observed by accredited agents of the various candidates.
12:28
George Gavrilis
And they sat on the floor, counting the ballots deep into the night. And that's my enduring image of the Afghan women poll workers. Were they counting the ballots, just because it was something that they volunteered to do or got a little bit of money for the task? Or was being part of an election process part of their hopes and dreams for the future of the country?
12:53
George Gavrilis
I think about them almost every day since Kabul fell. And it's really difficult to see that picture, because I snapped a photo of them, and to look at their picture and to think about their lives today, and where they are, how they are, and what they must be thinking about the future of their children and their grandchildren.
13:17
George Gavrilis
Given what's happened over the past several months, how did we keep cynicism at bay over the 10 plus years? What's your sentiment?
13:26
Laura Tedesco
Um, it's a decision that I make to not become cynical. And when I feel cynicism creeping in, you know, whatever, sort of navel gazing questions I asked myself, or what I'm thinking about, sort of the larger trend of what's happened in Afghanistan, and I feel myself getting cynical about it, or pessimistic, I have to decide not to do that. I don't think it's healthy. And that's just not how I want to go about my day, or my week, or my professional life. Cynicism can ruin everything.
14:07
George Gavrilis
Sure can.
14:08
Laura Tedesco
So I really try to decide and I think I do it 97% of the time, to not become cynical. And this may sound silly, but there's a lot to be not cynical about. So I decide and choose to emphasize those things for myself.
14:29
George Gavrilis
What do you still feel very good about?
14:32
Laura Tedesco
I know I did the best job that I could. I didn't slack off. I didn't skate through. But, more on this, I guess it's the friendships. George. I think a small handful of friendships that were made as a result of the work that I was sent to Afghanistan to do. I still feel pretty good about those. Does that sound corny?
14:59
George Gavrilis
No, not at all. Not at all.
15:02
Laura Tedesco
I think it does.
15:03
George Gavrilis
I mean, I feel that way about Jamal, for example, having done a project with him that, in many ways, ended up being disappointing.
15:11
Laura Tedesco
Mm-hmm.
15:12
George Gavrilis
But we have this powerful bond, just by having done this work together.
15:17
Laura Tedesco
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Laura Tedesco
15:30
George Gavrilis
No matter what has happened, no matter what the outcome was in Afghanistan, there is one thing that is so undeniable, and you've said this very nicely in the past, and that's how the experience of the United States and Afghanistan, for better or for worse, like it or not, is deeply intertwined.
15:41
Laura Tedesco
Yeah.
15:49
George Gavrilis
And partly, it's because of all the people that served in Afghanistan—all the Americans that served there, the military, the consultants that work there, the State Department folks, the private sector people, and so on, and so on. We were looking at some numbers, right?
16:04
Laura Tedesco
Yeah, it was hard to get at more fine tuned numbers about the number of Americans, not just military, the number of service people, men and women who've served in Afghanistan. The Pentagon has released those numbers for the most part, but it's all the support staff, the contractors, the diplomats, the private security guards, the other people trying to make a buck. You know, it's the whole gamut. I would guess it's a couple million based on the sketch of when I do math on the back of a napkin of adding up well, like I think it was this many diplomats in Kabul each year, blah, blah, blah, you know, trying to add it all up. It's got to be a couple of million Americans.
16:50
George Gavrilis
There was a number that came out recently, which is that 800,000 service members, U.S. service members, spent time in Afghanistan. And then I remember seeing another number that, I think it was at the height of the effort in 2008, there were also over 200,000 contractors there, and that was just in 2008. And that doesn't even say anything about State Department folks, people like yourself and so on.
17:14
Laura Tedesco
Yeah, 2008 was a little early for the surge. But nevertheless, you're talking about at the height of the surge?
17:21
George Gavrilis
I don't know if it was at the height of the surge, because a lot of elements of the surge were security and military.
17:27
Laura Tedesco
Yeah.
17:28
George Gavrilis
And before that, a lot of the contracting effort would have been—
17:30
Laura Tedesco
Right.
17:31
George Gavrilis
—more on just building stuff, building stuff.
17:33
Laura Tedesco
Yeah. Yeah.
17:34
George Gavrilis
But the way things add up, yeah, you could very well be right that, you know, something between a million and a half to two million Americans—
17:42
Laura Tedesco
Right.
17:42
George Gavrilis
—at some point, put some effort, spent some time living and working in Afghanistan. And that's pretty wild. That's pretty wild to think about.
17:51
Laura Tedesco
It's not a small number. Yeah, it's not a small number.
17:53
George Gavrilis
No. No. Your story's certainly unique, every story is unique. But, you were talking about all the friendships that you made, the enduring friendships with Afghans and the experiences that you shared. And I've got to believe that many of those other people of those million plus people, a million plus Americans that lived and worked in Afghanistan, at some point, would feel some of your sentiments no matter what their job was.
18:16
George Gavrilis
And I think that that's what made the collapse of the country last year so painful and excruciating for many of us, because it wasn't just something that you see in the news, those were people that we care about, and work that we care about.
18:34
George Gavrilis
And just as we were intertwined that way, now we're being intertwined in a very different way, where many tens of thousands of Afghans are now arriving in the U.S. as refugees. And our stories will, as you've told me, will continue to be intertwined.
18:49
Laura Tedesco
Yeah. Whether we like it or not, the United States was entwined with Afghanistan for 20 years. America's longest war, we kept hearing various presidents say that, and President Biden as recently as when he announced the end to America's longest war. And as a country, I think we have a good bit of amnesia— most people have moved on. And there's a lot of other news both in the U.S. and in the world, for people to think about other topics.
19:18
Laura Tedesco
But whether we like it or not, we were entwined with Afghanistan for 20 years. And that did not stop when Biden announced the end to America's longest war, because as of now, there are more than 70,000 Afghan refugees who've come into the United States since August, and many tens of thousands more to come. So these individuals, these families, these people are going to be integrated into our communities. And they're going to make their contributions and become part of our school districts, shopping at the same Target we all shop at, or whatever. And this aspect of our countries being intertwined is going to persist.
20:06
Laura Tedesco
And yes, I'm only one story of whether it's two million Americans or however many, you know, of people who have worked and got to know Afghanistan. I'm just one of millions of stories that people can tell about what that experience has been like. And fortunately, I'm not cynical about it. So I can tell the story without a veneer of yucky anger and cynicism. Although I have been angry and cynical at moments.
Laura Tedesco
20:46
George Gavrilis
Speaking of all the stories, there's one other story — it's not a happy ending, but it's not a tragic ending either. Maybe it's bittersweet. Maybe you have a better word for it. He's come up a lot. We've talked about him a lot, sometimes mentioning his name, sometimes not.
21:01
Laura Tedesco
Yeah, so you're referencing Mr. Massoudi, and he is someone who's come up in a number of our episodes, in part because he's been such a prominent figure to me, even in the long stretches of time that have passed between my talking to him or seeing him. But there was something quite formative about my larger experience of working in Afghanistan, as a result of knowing Mr. Massoudi. And as I've talked about, he's older and I generally carry respect for older people. It's just sort of how I was raised. I was aware of our social differences, but he remained dear to me for many different reasons.
21:48
Laura Tedesco
He's now in the United States. He arrived a few weeks ago. The last months have been, I know, not easy at all for him on his bumpy journey to get from Kabul to the United States. At one point, in the midst of that journey, he was in a lily pad somewhere in Europe, and we were able to connect on the phone.
22:14
Laura Tedesco
The conversation was brief. And he sounded cheerful and I asked him if he needed anything. He never complains. He's, you know, he's like, no, no, we have everything. But I have wondered, if in the course of his long, bumpy journey to get to the United States, if there were times when he wished he never left Kabul. His voice cracked while he was talking, and he referenced his homeland. And I think that in that moment, he was maybe feeling the gravity of both what he was experiencing right then and maybe what uncertainty was in his future.
22:51
Laura Tedesco
I wonder what his interior thoughts have been about the whole process, and what it's going to be like for a man in his 70s, to be basically starting a new life in a new country, with other members of his family too, some of whom are quite young. So the future looks different for the younger members of his family than it looks for him. I've just wondered, and while yes, he's safe here, and he doesn't have to worry about death threats, I just wonder what he thinks. It's maybe not 100% of a happy ending. Wouldn't he rather be in his homeland? I think he would. I know he would.
23:32
Laura Tedesco
I don't want to speak for him. But I would imagine he's seen some rough years, that he would really rather perhaps live out his retirement in his family home, with his grandkids nearby, maybe strolling to the market to buy vegetables or whatever, rather than trying to make a new life in a country where he's never lived. So I regard that as kind of bittersweet, as you said.
24:03
George Gavrilis
He is here, he's been able to bring his kids and his grandchildren here, and undoubtedly they will have a more stable life here, the grandkids certainly will—
24:13
Laura Tedesco
Yeah.
24:14
George Gavrilis
—more prospects, more economic stability.
24:17
Laura Tedesco
I think so. I think that's a reality for sure. No one can argue with that. And I would imagine Mr. Massoudi sees, sees that too, like that that's very much on his mind.
24:28
George Gavrilis
Thinking about his life, it's so remarkable. You had told me that he was once before a refugee.
24:34
Laura Tedesco
He was. During the Afghan civil war, and during the very early years of the Taliban government, he was a refugee in Pakistan. That experience of being a refugee in Pakistan, I think, is different, quite different than being a refugee in the United States. But he may have had something he could think about when he made a decision to leave Afghanistan in August.
24:59
George Gavrilis
I wonder if there's something we can do to help him document his story.
25:04
Laura Tedesco
One of his sons is encouraging him to at least dictate his story into a phone, or a little tape recorder, so that it could be transcribed. I don't foresee Mr. Massoudi sitting down at a computer and typing it out. It would be better even if someone were to sit with him with a recorder and record him talking about his life. It would be fascinating.
25:28
George Gavrilis
Maybe we have to figure out a way to get that done.
25:31
Laura Tedesco
Yeah, it would be an amazing story.
25:33
George Gavrilis
The man who saved the country's treasures—
25:37
Laura Tedesco
Yeah.
25:38
George Gavrilis
—who took so much risk to save the country's heritage and to protect the museum, today is here and has no chance in the short term, possibly even for the rest of his life, of walking through the halls of the museum again, back in Kabul. That is upsetting.
25:57
Laura Tedesco
Yeah, let's hope he can, let's hope, let's hope that he will be able to.
26:03
George Gavrilis
Yeah.
26:04
Laura Tedesco
None of us has a crystal ball. My hope is that he'll have a dignified experience in the U.S.—
26:10
George Gavrilis
Yeah.
26:11
Laura Tedesco
—that his experience here will be dignified.
26:18
George Gavrilis
"You've been listening to Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. As we count down the final two episodes of Laura's journey into Afghanistan, we want to take a moment to thank you, the listener, for joining us on this journey. To stay in touch, follow us on Instagram, at the_monuments_woman.
26:39
George Gavrilis
This show is produced by Christian D. Bruun and May Eleven Projects. It is recorded by Audivita Studios, and edited by Shaun Hettinger and Greg Williams. The theme song is This Love by Ariana Delawari, featuring Salar Nader.
Ep 27: Like It or Not — Finale, Part 1 of 2
Topics Covered in this Episode
Afghan TV show appearance
George and the Afghan women at polling centers
Cynicism
The U.S. and Afghanistan relationship
The numbers
An end to America's Longest War
Afghan Refugees
Mr. Massoudi
Recorded on January 12 and 14, 2022
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