The Architect

---

00:04

George Gavrilis
You might remember that we talked about the Afghan national museum early on in Episodes 4 and 5.  It’s a decade-long saga with many characters— the gracious and courageous museum director Mr. Omara Khan Massoudi who asked if the U.S. might help build a new museum for the country, our archaeologist Laura Tedesco at the State Department who took his request to heart and helped organize an international design competition, and Hamid Karzai the former president of Afghanistan who threw a wrench in the works by insisting that the second-place winner build the new museum.

00:41

George Gavrilis
In this episode, Laura and I carry on the story with Toño Foraster Mariscal, the Barcelona-based architect whose renowned firm AV62 won first place in the competition. Toño walks us through the museum’s dreamy galleries and serene courtyards as they exist in his blueprints and renderings. We get lost in his description of a building that may never get built, especially now with the Taliban in control of the country.

01:09

George Gavrilis
Yet, Toño is a determined optimist who believes that Afghanistan’s much-traumatized population deserves a museum that honors the country’s vast archaeological heritage, a space where Afghans can come together, to reflect, perhaps be inspired, and celebrate their rich history. Join us as we continue the story of the Afghan national museum through the eyes of an architect who, uncharacteristically, believes that architecture cannot be the protagonist in the story. 

01:42

George Gavrilis
This is Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. Today, we are continuing on Laura's journey into Afghanistan. If you are new to this podcast, we recommend going back to start with Episode 1. For everyone else, welcome back. Let's jump in.

02:00

George Gavrilis

How was it that you heard about the competition to build a new museum for Afghanistan?

02:06

Toño Foraster Mariscal

There were three things that you have to have in your background to be able to present the project in the competition. And there were three elements that we have already practiced: Museography— we made a lot of exhibitions in different museums, so we have worked with curators and artists; so we have this experience, this background. Then, working in Islamic countries— we were already working in Iraq and in Kurdistan, and Dagestan afterwards. And then working in conflict countries— and it was in Iraq and Kurdistan, the two of them that were conflict countries. 

02:45

George Gavrilis

How did you come up with a design?

02:48

Toño Foraster Mariscal

When you do a competition, many of the times, you don't have the knowledge that you really need to go forward with a project. For example, Afghanistan. If you haven't been to Afghanistan, if you don't know Afghanistan, maybe you have been interested in the culture, in the history. But really, you didn't have this experience of knowing the country. And so you have to be very synthetic and very abstract, when you try to pick up the pieces that are going to help you define the project. You always have little things that you put together. And finally, you go for the project. 

03:22 

Toño Foraster Mariscal

In this case, what was very clear is that it was not going to be an iconic building. Kabul, Afghanistan, the National Museum— the architecture doesn't need to be the protagonist of the story. The pieces and the archaeology— that is the one that's going to tell you the Afghan story. And the architecture has to be like silence in relation with light, with vegetation. It has to be protective, like shelter. 

03:50

George Gavrilis

I see. Yeah.

03:51

Toño Foraster Mariscal

And this was something that we have very clear. Then, of course, when you look for the traditions, brick is one element that is very used in the Afghan architecture, ceramics, all the relation with the Islamic architecture, and try to find all these points and you put it together. When you do a project in a competition, and also you only have one month or three weeks or whatever. So you have to, well, try to make this patchwork. And then you develop the project. 

04:19

George Gavrilis

Were there things that you designed as part of the building that you ended up changing or scrapping, completely reworking?

04:26

Toño Foraster Mariscal

We have changed the project in relation with the one in the competition, the one in the contract. It's an evolution in the sense that when you do the competition, it's the first idea, let's say, the genesis. But then when you start and you touch reality a little bit more, it doesn't mean that you don't do the ideas you want to do, it means that you have more knowledge of where you are. And for example, the collection that we didn't have much information— Well, you change things. But, you maintain the essence of the project of the competition, but some things were changed. 

05:01

George Gavrilis

Is there a part of the design that you're particularly attached to— a place in the museum, that if it were built, you would go and you would sit there and you would say, I did this, this is fantastic. 

05:14

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Yeah. I think one of the courtyards of the entrance and also the courtyard of the administration is very nice. And then you have a garden that is related to the collection. We made also a landscape project for the garden. I think they are very nice spots— if you are in Kabul, to try to have an oasis— you say oasis in English?

05:34

George Gavrilis

An oasis, yeah, yeah, oasis.

05:36

Toño Foraster Mariscal

—in the middle of— Kabul is a noisy city—

05:40

George Gavrilis

Very. Oh my god, yeah.

05:42

Toño Foraster Mariscal

— a lot of dust. So if you go there, I think people will feel a little bit peaceful, and can relax, and that will be nice, no?

05:54

George Gavrilis
Yeah. The design and the schematic picture certainly convey that. 

06:03

George Gavrilis

Hey, Laurie, when did you first meet Toño?

06:07

Laura Tedesco

I think, Toño, that we met for the first time in Kabul. And I think it was in Mr. Massoudi's office. Was it 2014 or 2013? The weather was cold, I remember that. 

06:21
Toño Foraster Mariscal

I think no, maybe when we were in the Embassy, it was not maybe the first time, the Spanish Embassy? 

06:28

Laura Tedesco

Oh, did we meet—

06:29

Toño Foraster Mariscal

When we had the diploma. You know, there was the diploma and there was an event.

06:33

Laura Tedesco

Oh right.

06:34

Toño Foraster Mariscal

You were there. 

06:35

Laura Tedesco

I was there for that. Yes. Now I do remember that at the Spanish Embassy.

06:40

Toño Foraster Mariscal
Yeah.

06:41

Laura Tedesco
But we met in Kabul for the first time.

06:43

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Yeah, Kabul for the first time. 

06:45

Laura Tedesco

Yes. And I remember also, liking you right away and being so delighted about the results of the competition and getting to meet you. But I do remember us going to Mr. Massoudi's office together.

06:59

Toño Foraster Mariscal

We were together in his sofa. 

07:03

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, his big leather sofa. Yeah. freezing. Always freezing in there. Yeah.

07:11

George Gavrilis

So— now you're reminiscing very happily, and there are smiles on your faces. But it's also been a saga, right? I mean, in a year or so it's gonna be like 10 years of this.

07:20

Laura Tedesco
Yeah.

07:22

George Gavrilis
So tell me about some of the low points that you had to work through.

07:24

Laura Tedesco

Oh, do you want to start, Toño, on the low points, or shall I start with the low points?

07:30

George Gavrilis

Unless Laurie, you want to buy Toño some time by starting yourself? 

07:34

Toño Foraster Mariscal

As you prefer Laura, you can start, or I can start.   

07:38

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Okay. It was soon after the competition winners were announced, and the diploma and the award was given to AV62. Then I don't remember exactly how long it was. But it was not terribly long, when Karzai changed his mind. President Karzai decided he preferred the number two design, the Mansilla + Tuñón design. And that was like we're driving down this road, and then somebody takes the wheel of the car and drives the car down into a ditch. I felt like that's what happened. 

08:11

Laura Tedesco

And I guess he had the right to do that, of course, but it took a lot of the momentum out of the project. And I remember a senior person in the State Department at the time saying to me, Karzai just killed the project, meaning that the United States, at least I'm just speaking from this standpoint, had invested so much into getting to the point where a design was on the table that could then be cultivated into an actuality. And the decision on Karzai really knocked the wind out of it in a big way. And so that was a bummer.

09:02

George Gavrilis

Wait, Laurie, I just want to be clear in what I'm extrapolating.

09:05

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

09:06

George Gavrilis
But are you saying that if Karzai hadn't done that, we might have a new museum built today? Did he lose us so much time that we lost the opportunity to have a new building on the ground?

09:17

Laura Tedesco

At that time, we not only lost a lot of time, it expired the incentive on the part of the United States to want to keep contributing. And that was a difficult time. It wasn't that long after— there were so many things happening at the same time in Afghanistan— and there were changes in the Afghan government, I mean, Karzai was no longer in office, and then finances of the Afghan government were shifting, the international posture towards Afghanistan was shifting— all of these shifting aspects were going to influence this project. 

10:00

Laura Tedesco

Eventually, the Afghan government renewed the project with Toño and with AV62. One consistent element throughout all of this was we stayed in contact with each other, we were trying to talk through problem solving regularly. We had now developed a genuine friendship. Also between us was always this very authentic desire to see the project realized, because we both understood it was important enough to keep trying.

10:41

Laura Tedesco

Toño can talk to some of the issues that he's had with working with the Ghani government and developing the designs and the saga of that which he was kindly keeping me, you know, informed on. We've met in Kabul, Toño, I don't know how many times over the years where we've been there at the same time and met with the Spanish Embassy and the American Embassy and Afghan authorities and trying to keep things going.

11:07

Toño Foraster Mariscal
I think many, many times, for example, in the politics, they don't know, really, the importance of the museum, no? Because—

11:16

Laura Tedesco

Right.

11:17

Toño Foraster Mariscal
—the collection is beautiful, it's one of the best collections in the world. So this necessity to do a new museum was something very important in the sense that it would have helped also in the reconstruction of the Afghan identity. But I don't think they were really conscious about the importance of it. There was missing this desire of doing the national museum.

11:40

Laura Tedesco

I completely agree with what you just said that very few people recognized that the museum was not just to house artifacts. Symbolically, that building for the city of Kabul, for Afghans, and internationally, was very important. And what Toño says is that the collections in the National Museum, it's the best by far in Central Asia, and all of Asia perhaps. So I just wanted to agree with Toño's point that the building was symbolic, more so than being an envelope to house artifacts.

12:19

Toño Foraster Mariscal

The process of reconstruction, for example, you can invest in roads, you can invest in production of energy, you can invest in many things that are necessary. But the investment to do a museum is only like 30 kilometers of a road. So, the symbolic power is so big that in the terms of reconstruction, I think it is very important. 

12:45

George Gavrilis

Toño, that's a really great point that, you know, societies are more willing to invest in 30 kilometers of road than in building a national museum. Do you also think that we have the same issue in Europe sometimes? 

12:58

Toño Foraster Mariscal

There's been, like a balance in Europe in the sense that culture sometimes is not in the place that it has to be—it is a little bit lower, let's say. But at least there is an investment in culture. I think we are in a good situation right now. Of course, if there will be more investment, it will be better, but the balance of the national money to invest whatever, it's, I suppose, also very complicated.

13:27

Toño Foraster Mariscal

But here for Afghanistan, it was just this museum, a building that will contain a very good collection. And it will have changed the dynamics in that part of the city. It would have been able to attract a student from Kabul, and maybe from around the country. The national museum, it's very small, and it's old right now. 

13:57

George Gavrilis

And it speaks to the importance of public spaces, like you're saying, that aren't bridges, that aren't roads, that aren't these big things about infrastructure, and we do lose sight of that, I think. 

14:06

Toño Foraster Mariscal

I think it's very important in the sense that when you are conscious that public space is also your space. A museum is a public space. 

14:15

George Gavrilis

Hey, Laurie, where are the public spaces in Kabul that you're fond of in the absence of a new museum?

14:20

Laura Tedesco

Well, Babur's Gardens, first and foremost, I mean, it's almost like Central Park is to New York City, although Babur's Gardens is much smaller, because it's an area of just respite. And Babur's Gardens is historic, as well as the burial place of Emperor Babur. There are also public events that are held at Babur's Gardens. In my experience of going there, you see Afghans of all walks of life— families, young adults, young women, children— and it's just a place to go and rest, or meet friends and it's really beautifully landscaped also. 

14:58

Toño Foraster Mariscal

It's like an island in the city, no? 

15:01

Laura Tedesco

It is. Yes, exactly. It's like an island in the city.

15:06

George Gavrilis
Toño, in your trips to Kabul, did you have places that you became fond of?

15:10

Toño Foraster Mariscal

It was very difficult. In the last journeys, I was able to move a little bit more. 

15:15

George Gavrilis

Yeah.

15:16

Toño Foraster Mariscal
You didn't have much opportunity to have a real city experience, let's say, you have tangential city experience, no?

15:23
George Gavrilis
Sure.

15:25

Toño Foraster Mariscal

But of course, you cannot go walking one place to another. It was very complicated to move. Very complicated.

15:33

George Gavrilis

There's one thing I was curious about, actually. Storage space, because right? Most museums don't display everything. Did the design have storage space? 

15:42

Toño Foraster Mariscal
It's underground. And he also helps to protect from humidity. But it's a place where it's a huge storage.

15:50

Laura Tedesco

Which is needed.

15:51

Toño Foraster Mariscal
Which is needed, yeah.

15:54

Laura Tedesco
And there's an element of optimism in creating a huge storage, because it means there's more to be discovered that would then go to the National Museum. And some would go on display, and some would go into storage. The current National Museum, it's bursting at the seams with artifacts. I mean, the storage, they're packed to the gills. I don't think you could squeeze another box in some of those storage rooms. I know that for Toño, in planning the National Museum of Afghanistan, the storage is a major consideration. 

16:28

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Yeah, because the exhibition you have in there, it will only be like one fifth of the collection, then the rest will be in the storage.

16:37

George Gavrilis

There's something just incredibly optimistic about Afghanistan having designed a new National Museum, one with huge storage space on site. Because we know what happened in the early 2000s, right? It is what it is. And we'll hope for the best in the years ahead, right?

16:52

Toño Foraster Mariscal
Yeah.

16:59

George Gavrilis

So Toño, you continued to work on the project despite all the uncertainty in the Ghani years. What made you decide to continue?

17:06

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Well, I think Laura has said before that we want this project to go forward. It's not an egocentric type of thing— nothing to do with that. This collection, this city, these people deserve a good space where they can go on and let's say relate with a great history because it's a great history. So when you are maybe down, you are depressive or whatever, and you're seeing war— 

17:34

Toño Foraster Mariscal

I think these possibilities are very good to try to bring forth a little bit. I thought it was a very good opportunity to make the architecture really serve the people in the sense that, of course here when we make a library or we make a museum, it serves a lot and it's a public space and everything, but in Afghanistan it's like much more in the sense that they don't have nearly anything. I think someone will call me stupid. Because it's the necessities you also have inside yourself— what do you want to do, and why you want to do it. 

18:07

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

18:08

Toño Foraster Mariscal

In the economic way, it is not intelligent, so— 

18:12

Laura Tedesco

[laughing] Yeah. Toño, even adding more to what you're saying, Kabul was largely destroyed during the Civil War. And there's very little of this kind of urban fabric left that's historic. There's a little bit, little pockets here and there, but not much at all from Kabul having been, you know, a very historic city. And the new architecture that's gone up in Kabul over the last 20 years is really not well done. For the most part, it's a lot of these glass buildings. 

18:50

Laura Tedesco

People who live in Kabul, Kabulis, would say these ugly glass houses— monstrous mansions and things— line the roads. And so creating a museum as this public space, it's not just the architecture, it's what the building holds— there's so much more to it.

19:15

Laura Tedesco

If Toño had not maintained his inspiration and his desire to remain involved in the project, it would have died a long time ago. It could have died at many points along the way. There were many times, Toño, when I felt like it was kind of just you and me, trying to keep—to keep this going, baby steps and, you know, putting our heads together like, okay, maybe we can, you know, what if we do this, and you know, what if we meet with that person, maybe you know, that will help, or. You know—

19:54

Toño Foraster Mariscal

The strategy, it worked finally, no? —to have the contract and everything— things you can never control.

20:02

Laura Tedesco

Right. Right. Unfortunately. 

20:05

George Gavrilis

Was it earlier this year that you signed a contract?

20:08

Toño Foraster Mariscal
It was 2020. January 2020. 

20:11

George Gavrilis

Okay, okay. So it wasn't too long ago—

20:13

Toño Foraster Mariscal
No. 

20:15

George Gavrilis

—under Ghani. So you were planning on moving ahead? 

20:18

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Yeah, we finished in June 2021, the last step to be approved. And suddenly we were in July. 

20:26

George Gavrilis

Right. Yeah. And by August, the Taliban were running into Kabul. Yeah. 

20:33

George Gavrilis

Is it true that you describe this saga as a Mexican soap opera? 

20:38

Laura Tedesco

[laughs]

20:43

Toño Foraster Mariscal

In my case, I have to convince jurors, I have to convince Afghans, I have to convince the Spaniards that we were capable of going forward with the project. So it was kind of a diplomatic type of work. And it was good. If you want to make it possible, you have to do it that way. So—

21:01

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, you remember, Toño, when we would joke sometimes about it being like a telenovela. 

21:08

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Yeah, telenovela.

21:10

Laura Tedesco

Yeah. And we haven't really explained to you, George, some of the characters we've had to deal with.

21:14

George Gavrilis

Well, share, share a couple stories about them.

21:16

Laura Tedesco

You know, complicated personalities and individuals who want to be involved and don't know how to be involved effectively or productively. And then there's been plenty of egos floating around throughout the project. As a way to just kind of keep it light, sometimes we would joke, okay, we're starting a new season now with this soap opera, and you know, who's going to be the villain or the hero? It's how we've sort of described the project over the years.

21:51

Laura Tedesco

I don't know, Toño. I tend towards optimism. And so, you know, if it were possible to get this project going again, I'm in, if you're in.  

22:03

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Of course. I haven't surrendered. 

22:08

Laura Tedesco

[laughing]

22:10

Toño Foraster Mariscal

I don't know if I will die before, but I haven't surrendered.

22:16

George Gavrilis

Okay. That's a big statement. Even with the Taliban in Kabul, if you haven't surrendered, what does that mean? Does that mean that you hope that one day, we may have a new museum actually built? —while we're still youthful and able to enjoy it.

22:29

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Maybe I am idealistic— one part of the Talibans, maybe they are conscious of the importance of the culture. The images we have of the Talibans at the beginning— those images are terrible, disgusting, and they are very, very, very strong. But I don't know if all of them are like that. Maybe someday they will have a kind of sensibility to their history and to their culture, I hope. 

22:59

George Gavrilis

Laurie, you have your finger on the pulse. Is there enough of a change that we could hope that the Taliban of today would want to create public spaces where Afghans can celebrate their culture and heritage?

23:11

Laura Tedesco

No, I don't think so. I'm— I'm an optimist. 

23:14

George Gavrilis

Yeah, I was gonna say so much for the optimist.

23:16

Laura Tedesco

And even an idealist. But there's a part of me that's realistic. I don't think that the Taliban even has the governance skills to do that. And they definitely don't have the money to run the country in a fundamental, basic way, much less creating public spaces, whether it's a museum or a park, and put park benches in it. No, I would not bet one dime on that. But we'll see what happens. I also know I can't predict the future.

23:52

George Gavrilis

But can I push you a little bit on that? 

23:55

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, sure.

23:56

George Gavrilis

Would you have said in 2002 that the new Afghan government had the capacity to build park benches and museums on their own? Or is it something that we had to give them the money and the technical capacity to do?

24:07

Laura Tedesco

So that's a tough question— I would just give you a made up answer, because in 2002— 

24:13

George Gavrilis

You weren't there. 

24:14

Laura Tedesco

I wasn't there.

24:14

George Gavrilis

Yeah.

24:15

Laura Tedesco

So I can't speak to that. But in 2002, the Afghan government had the support of like 47 countries to help it stand up. And as of today, I don't know if any country has officially recognized the Taliban government. Maybe China has, I'm not sure. Maybe Qatar? 

24:36

George Gavrilis

China has not yet. 

24:39

Laura Tedesco

They have not yet. Okay.

24:40

George Gavrilis

And neither has Qatar. Or maybe it has. Not fully, at least. Not fully, at least.

24:46

Laura Tedesco

So it's not even clear. I guess the larger point is, I'm not going to bet my money that the Taliban are going to do that, create public spaces for Afghans to gather, when then, would they limit it just to men? And women aren't allowed there? Or maybe there would be days for just women? But who knows what the next 5, 10 years will hold?

25:07

George Gavrilis

Yeah.

25:08

Toño Foraster Mariscal 

No. Yeah, you don't know, because also, this is just what some of the Afghans tell me, no? That there's a possibility that some people from the government make possible governance in some important spots. So the Taliban would not be 100% in the government. I don't know. There's many options that we will not really know. I hope the best for the country. And right now, the moment is not the best.

25:35

George Gavrilis

Right.

24:37

Laura Tedesco
Yeah. Exactly.

25:38

George Gavrilis
Yeah, it'll be clear in the coming months. There was some interesting news on the governance issue, which is that come November, the Taliban are going to restart a polio vaccination campaign going door to door. And that's huge, because you need all the health workers that you had before, and their professionalism and their capacity to do this. And so for me, that polio campaign is going to be a baseline as to whether they can govern and how. So I'm going to be watching that really carefully.

26:07

George Gavrilis

Wow, we got off the subject of architecture real quick, didn't we?

26:13

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Well, it's not more important, let's say.

26:13

George Gavrilis
But—

26:14

Laura Tedesco

Oh, yes, yes, it is. 

26:16

George Gavrilis
It's very important. 

26:17

Laura Tedesco

Oh, yes, it is. 

26:19

George Gavrilis

Oh, yeah. Yeah, you know.

26:24

George Gavrilis
Ok. Toño, I want you to do something for me. Pretend that it's been built, and that you are walking through the building, the new museum. What's it going to feel like and look like?

26:35

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Well, I think when people enter, first they will walk around through the gardens. There was also this possibility of making more vegetation, more trees. So they will have the sensation of recovering a Mughal garden with a bird singing, leaves moving, the smell of the flowers. 

26:56

Toño Foraster Mariscal

You will see at the end a brick wall. Quite elemental, let's say, but there's a golden door that is pointing out the entrance of the building. You enter through a courtyard. So it's a type of entrance that is not direct. First you go in the entrance, then you go to the courtyard and then you go to the lobby. So, in a sense you are preparing yourself also to be in a good disposition to look at the artifacts and to look at the collection. 

27:23

Toño Foraster Mariscal

So you also have the skylights. The light is coming in in a quite, let's say, abstract way. And then you will go through, and then you have the time to go to the galleries, you can prepare your visit in relation of what you want to see. 

27:40

Toño Foraster Mariscal

You will learn about the history of Afghanistan, you will have the more important artifacts of every civilization. You can have an understanding of its civilization with the models, pictures, and projections. And then you go out, and you can have coffee or tea in the coffee bar. That's also very nice, you have the views to the gardens. 

28:01

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Also the space is prepared for all the citizens. So for children and they also have their own visit in a different way, they have their own spaces. And I think they will have a good experience in the museum.

28:14

George Gavrilis

Hey, that's lovely, Toño.

28:20

George Gavrilis

Hey, thanks. Thank you for doing this.

28:22

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Thank you very much. 

28:22

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, thanks, Toño. It's great to see you. 

28:25

Toño Foraster Mariscal

Same.

28:27

Laura Tedesco

Maybe we'll meet in Spain next time.

28:31

George Gavrilis
You've been listening to Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. To stay in touch, also follow us on Instagram at the_monuments_woman. Join us next week when we dive deeper.

28:47

George Gavrilis
This show is produced by Christian D. Bruun and May Eleven Projects. It is recorded by Audivita Studios, and edited by Shaun Hettinger and Greg Williams. The theme song is This Love by Ariana Delawari, featuring Salar Nader.

Ep 20: The Architect — Toño Foraster Mariscal

Topics Covered in this Episode
The international architectural design competition
The design for the National Museum of Afghanistan
What is the uniquely Toño Foraster Mariscal design?
How Laura and Toño met
Part 1: President Karzai
Part 2: President Ghani
The symbolism of a national museum for Afghanistan
The importance of public spaces
Storage
The decision to continue despite uncertainty
Finally, a contract
A Mexican soap opera
The future with the Taliban
Toño describes the museum design

Recorded on October 19, 2021