Ep 21: Trust Fall - Monuments Woman

Transcript

00:04
George Gavrilis
This is Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. Today, we are continuing on Laura's journey into Afghanistan. If you are new to this podcast, we recommend going back to start with Episode 1. For everyone else, welcome back. Let's jump in.

00:22

Laura Tedesco

You know what I was thinking about? I feel like every time we record or we're about to launch an episode of this podcast, I'm doing a trust fall. That is not my natural inclination to want to do a trust fall every week.

00:38

George Gavrilis

I didn't know you felt that way. Here's a question. Are we catching you every time?

00:42

Laura Tedesco

Yes. Oh, nice question.

00:45

George Gavrilis

Okay.

00:46

Laura Tedesco

Yes. Every time I'm caught. But I have been thinking about that. It's one of the sort of growing experiences of doing this with you, friend.

00:58

George Gavrilis

That's, that's a sweet thing for you to say. And I love doing this with you too. And you know that— I just want to put it out there. Every time you say something, I don't want you to be one step ahead of your words, because I just want you to be free to be yourself. It's my job to be one step ahead of your words.

01:16

Laura Tedesco

Okay.

01:17

George Gavrilis

And so whenever we're done, if I feel like you've said anything that's going to potentially cause grief for you, or trouble, I always flag it. In fact, I think I've been more conservative than you in some instances.

01:30

Laura Tedesco
Yeah, I think you have. I've noticed that. I really do appreciate it.

01:34

George Gavrilis

Yeah. Because you know, we all need a job, right?

01:37

Laura Tedesco

[laughing] Indeed, we do.

01:42

George Gavrilis

Yeah. Many unknowns in life, many unknowns.

01:47

George Gavrilis
There are so many things on my mind, not just about Afghanistan but about life in general, like what's ahead for us in the years to come. But when it comes to your work on Afghanistan, with the Taliban in power, with the international community and certainly the U.S. not recognizing them, debating how to engage them, no clear policy has come down yet—

02:14

Laura Tedesco

Right. Right.

02:15

George Gavrilis

Right? It's all being discussed. What does that mean for your work? What are you doing right now?

02:23

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, I'm no less busy than when I was overseeing millions of dollars worth of simultaneous projects. Mostly my work at the moment is maintaining contact with the many Afghans that I knew and worked with in the years that I was going back and forth to Afghanistan, and very much engaged with people in the culture sector.

02:49

Laura Tedesco

I hadn't realized how many people I got to know, until I started getting very regular emails from many of them who were seeking help. And I think even just a sense of hope that they're not in a hopeless situation. Some are asking for things that are impossible for me to do like visas and seats on airplanes, and I can't do any of that.

03:16

Laura Tedesco

So, I had an email exchange with an Afghan who I've known 10, 11 years, who worked in the culture sector, and he's trying to get out of the country with his children and grandchildren. He was asking me, How does he get out of the country? My response was, I don't know how you do that. And I closed the email with, we must keep hope, even if he's desperate to get out and the winter is coming. I don't know what his situation is. Does he have enough food for his whole family? I— I didn't get that personal with him. But, uhm.

03:53

Laura Tedesco

It's a lot of person-centered work that I'm doing right now. It's not in the abstract. I am communicating with many people on a daily basis where I take time to write thoughtful emails back to them. Because I don't want my emails to be thoughtless.

04:12

George Gavrilis

Have there been moments when you've been at a loss for what to say?

04:16

Laura Tedesco

Oh, many moments, and sometimes I have to wait days before I can think of how to answer a particular person's pleas, as in, you know, to help them. Some days, I just don't have it in me, while I sit comfortably in my house with a fridge full of food. I don't know what to say.

04:37

George Gavrilis

You know, Jamal, he's still in Kabul, and right now he's doing okay. He's an awfully optimistic person. Forward-looking, knows how to make the best out of many situations.

04:48

Laura Tedesco

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

04:50

George Gavrilis

And my heart just drops a little bit every day that I talk to him. He's not as joyous as he normally is. You know, because he's not one of these people to be dramatic.

05:04

Laura Tedesco

Right.

05:05

George Gavrilis

And so I have to read between the lines of his facial gestures and the sound of his voice. And it's hard to know what to say and what to do. We're still working together and that helps.

05:18

Laura Tedesco

Right, right.

05:19

George Gavrilis

On the UN work.

05:21

Laura Tedesco

Yeah. Right. It may sound trite. But I think that maintaining hope and optimism is really essential. It's something that we talked about quite a while ago, a resistance towards cynicism or pessimism. We got to stay hopeful and optimistic.

05:38

George Gavrilis

Yeah.

05:43

George Gavrilis

So, there are so many Afghans who were evacuated with a suitcase—

05:51

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

05:53

George Gavrilis

—or what they could carry. And there are so many Afghans, after the evacuations ended, that had to look around their house and decide what they would take to the market or to the street to sell so that they could buy food for their families, as prices have more than doubled in the past weeks. And the Afghani just continues to just drop in value. If you had to leave your home with one suitcase, what would you take? Because I was struggling with this myself.

06:20

Laura Tedesco

How big is the suitcase? Like a carry-on? That would be so hard to do.

06:28

George Gavrilis

Right.

06:30

Laura Tedesco

What would you pack?

06:31

George Gavrilis

Oh man, I really thought about this. So I would pack layers, some layers because I don't know what kind of weather I would have. I would not pack any light clothing. I would only pack like dark clothing. Because I'm assuming that it would get dirty and stained and then I wouldn't be able to wash it and that it would have to hide stains. So I'll be able to maintain some dignity.

06:50

George Gavrilis

And then I saw my grandmother's picture. And you know, I loved her very much. And she raised me. And I was thinking, Well, I'd have to take it out of the frame. Because the frame is unnecessary weight and bulk. But how am I going to carry it so that it doesn't get damaged? I could take a digital photo, but what if something happens to my phone? Should I upload it to the cloud, right?

07:12

Laura Tedesco

Yeah.

07:13

George Gavrilis

And so I'm going through all of these motions. And then, of course, I have a two-year old, right? And you remember what it was like when your kids were two— 80% of your suitcase is going to be filled with a two-year old's stuff—

07:25

Laura Tedesco

Maybe. Maybe.

07:26

George Gavrilis

—clothing and diapers and a meaningful toy. Books are out of the question. All the books stay behind.

07:34

Laura Tedesco

That's a very difficult question to answer—what would you pack. I don't know. I'd bring a journal. And my face cream. [laughs] Not to make light of it, but—

07:47

George Gavrilis

But you know what I mean, I have some beautiful things that have just been passed down from generation to generation. I can't even imagine leaving them behind. But I would have to.

07:55

Laura Tedesco

Right, right. You remember seeing pictures of the Kabul airport after the evacuation was over? And it was just strewn with—

08:04

George Gavrilis

Debris everywhere.

08:05

Laura Tedesco

— with people's personal belongings and open suitcases and a single shoe and toys and things. The anthropologist in me, I was interested to know how we could tell stories about people's lives based on the things that they left behind at the airport. An account could be told through the personal possessions that were left behind at the airport as people tried to flee.

08:29

George Gavrilis

You're right, that we're probably not doing that for the things that Afghans left behind. Are we?

08:33

Laura Tedesco

I don't know who could do that.

08:37

George Gavrilis

And chances are the belongings got collected, and sold on Kabul's streets or distributed to the poor.

08:41

Laura Tedesco

Yep. Yeah, for sure.

08:48

George Gavrilis

But in any event, what's your hope for what you can do over the next several months, at least, in terms of your cultural heritage work? What's possible and what is not possible?

09:00

Laura Tedesco

One hope is to stay in touch with the people I'm in touch with, so I have a sense of what they're going through, whether they remain in Afghanistan or are able to get out. I'm advocating right now within the office where I work in the State Department to keep cultural preservation projects going. And I keep a running list of future projects in the event that there are opportunities to fund future projects.

09:28

Laura Tedesco

I've been thinking about Afghan musicians who are in Pakistan right now. And could we do something to help support their music making? I don't know if that's going to be possible. I want to have something ready to go, that we can support to help keep some embers of cultural traditions and Afghan heritage burning and present and alive, whether it's in another country, or Afghans who have come to the United States, Afghans who are in still in Afghanistan—

10:00

Laura Tedesco

Until the U.S. defines its policy, whether to recognize the Taliban or not, and how humanitarian aid is going to flow into Afghanistan, I'm trying to be prepared for when there are fewer unknowns, at least on the little post-it note of work that I do, of cultural preservation. And that's what I think of it, like a little post-it note of work. I got a lot of stuff written on my post it note right now.

10:36

George Gavrilis

Of the people you worked with, and the networks of Afghans that you were familiar with, who left the country and who's still in the country? Do you have a sense of what the proportions are?

10:48

Laura Tedesco

Okay, so thinking of my inner circle of contacts who I'm in communication with the most, and then there are layers of circles of people where my work intersects with their work. Sure, a lot of people have gotten out but of my core 20 to 30 individuals who I've worked most closely with over the last decade plus, only two of them have gotten out—one of his own sheer will and effort, and another who I was able to push some levers to help him get out and his family. So I hope to be able to do more of that. But at the moment it's just not possible.

11:37

George Gavrilis

Had we spoken openly about Mr. Massoudi and where he is now? —the former museum director—

11:42

Laura Tedesco

Right.

11:43

George Gavrilis

Mr. Omara Khan Massoudi.

11:44

Laura Tedesco

Right, right, who as you know, I respect a great deal. So he was able to get out with nine of his family members. And they've gone around to various lily pads. Now, eight of his family members are in the United States. And Mr. Massoudi and his wife are still in Europe. And I hope that they'll come to the U.S. soon. And a lot of people know where Mr. Massoudi is, because they're calling him all the time.

12:12

George Gavrilis

What are people contacting him about?

12:15

Laura Tedesco

Well, you know, how's he doing? Where is he? What's he hearing? He's a trusted elder, and he has a lifetime of friendships, of people wondering where he is, not just Afghans, but internationals. I get at least three emails a week asking me for updates on Mr. Massoudi. And I don't share information about him. If he chooses to tell people where he is, or his immediate family chooses to tell people his situation, that's their choice. That is not news for me to share.

12:47

George Gavrilis

I see.

12:48

Laura Tedesco

That's how I see it. It's a respect for him and his privacy that I'm not going to be participating in talking about Mr. Massoudi's situation. I will do everything I can to help behind the scenes. And if he were to ask me, Laura-jan, would you please tell so-and-so where I am, then of course, I would convey it.

13:08

George Gavrilis

What's the best possible outcome for him right now?

13:10

Laura Tedesco

That he's reunited with his family? That's it. And his beloved brother, who's also somewhere in Europe, that they're all reunited. So that's what we're hoping for.

13:22

George Gavrilis

Many Afghan families got split up in the evacuation process between those that remained in Afghanistan, those that wound up in different lily pads, different host countries. How much did families get split up?

13:35

Laura Tedesco

Yeah, um, I don't know the statistics on that. The two individuals I know who got out: one, his family was not split up. And Mr. Massoudi, we're pretty hopeful that they're all going to be reunited.

13:50

George Gavrilis

Okay.

13:51

Laura Tedesco

I did speak with Mr. Massoudi a couple days ago. And it was a little bit of a scratchy connection. So he kept saying, can you hear me? Can you hear me, Laura-jan? And I was like, Oh, I can hear you loud and clear. I'm so happy to hear your voice. And we didn't get very far because he kept cutting out, but there was a moment of connection.

14:11

George Gavrilis

This is also a good reminder that culture isn't just heritage sites, but alive inside people.

14:16

Laura Tedesco

Oh, it is. Oh, I would say even more so. Yes, those intangible traditions, and yeah, absolutely.

14:28

George Gavrilis

There's another person that left Afghanistan that was in the news, Omaid Sharifi, the founder of ArtLords. Yeah, somebody that you know really well.

14:37

Laura Tedesco

I know him pretty well. I have huge admiration for him. He is a special human being. He's been part of this group called ArtLords that painted these incredible murals all over the blast walls of Kabul. If you've not been to Kabul, one of the things that it looks like, as you're driving down the road, there are these huge 12 foot cement walls that line most streets in the center of town. And they're kind of ugly. You can't see the buildings behind them. That's the purpose of these blast walls.

15:10

Laura Tedesco

ArtLords had this idea to beautify the city. So they started painting these incredible murals that were really about social change. And they paint pictures of mujahideen, and instead of say, a rocket launcher on his back, it would be a pencil, for example. So it's really trying to kind of communicate something in particular.

15:36

Laura Tedesco

Or, instead of a rocket launcher, it would look like a vase with little flowers coming out of it. Or a camel with the camel bags on either side of it, a very common scene in Afghanistan. Each of those bags would have like a big red heart in it, like the camel was carrying love and things like that.

15:57

Laura Tedesco

Very simple and powerful visual statements were painted all across Afghanistan, and I saw them a lot in part because all the blast walls inside the U.S. Embassy in Kabul were also covered in these murals, as well as outside in the public city of Kabul. And I got to meet Omaid a few times and I'm a big fan of his whole ethos of kindness and empathy and social change through art and getting people involved on the community level.

16:32

Laura Tedesco

When they would paint those murals in Kabul, anybody who walked by could contribute and pick up a paintbrush. Anybody could do it. Very community-oriented gestures towards social change and beautifying Kabul. I said to him, I think he should get a MacArthur Genius fellowship for what he's done and what he will do. He's in the U.S. now. I don't know if he's eligible but he's sure deserving of one.

16:58

George Gavrilis

The murals largely have been painted over now. And they've been replaced with Taliban mottos and sayings—

17:06

Laura Tedesco

—in black and white too, all the colors gone, 'coz the murals were very colorful.

17:12

George Gavrilis

But these have been documented thoroughly with photographs. Any chance we could revive them at least in one small way by having them all printed in a book?

17:21

Laura Tedesco

I love that idea. You know what? I'm going to put it on my list, for the minute there's an opportunity to find a way to do something like that.

17:29

George Gavrilis

I'll help.

17:30

Laura Tedesco

Mm hmm.

17:36

George Gavrilis

Hey, so one of one of the people that was in the article we were talking about in The New York Times, though that was mostly focused on Omaid and ArtLords, also talked to Roya Sadat, the Afghan filmmaker, and you got to know her, because she was part of the book project.

17:52

Laura Tedesco

She wrote a beautiful essay about her childhood growing up under the Taliban in Herat, and she's now in the United States. She's such a remarkable woman. When she was still living in Herat, she would run film festivals at the Citadel of Herat, you know, where women could come together, sometimes it would be just for women like a film festival, where only women could be the attendees. Did you ever happen to see the movie A Letter to the President?

18:23

George Gavrilis

No.

18:24

Laura Tedesco

You have to see this movie. It's incredible.

18:27

George Gavrilis

Ok.

18:28

Laura Tedesco

In it, she depicted something very controversial. She depicted a woman slapping her abusive husband on camera. That caused a lot of commentary in Afghanistan when that film came out, because it was not accepted by a lot of people to show a woman striking back on a spouse who was abusing her, which is, you know, not uncommon.

18:59

Laura Tedesco

But not to focus so much on that detail. The film itself is beautiful, very moving, and highly recommended. And I hope Roya Sadat will continue her filmmaking wherever she is.

19:13

George Gavrilis

Hmm.

19:14

Laura Tedesco

She's very talented.

19:19

George Gavrilis
You've been listening to Monuments Woman with Laura Tedesco. I'm your host George Gavrilis. Don't forget to like and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. To stay in touch, also follow us on Instagram at the_monuments_woman. Join us next week when we dive deeper.

19:35

George Gavrilis
This show is produced by Christian D. Bruun and May Eleven Projects. It is recorded by Audivita Studios, and edited by Shaun Hettinger and Greg Williams. The theme song is This Love by Ariana Delawari, featuring Salar Nader.